What happened to the GTDNext thread?

Folke

Registered
I could have sworn I saw a thread here about the app GTDNext.com, where its founder James and TesTeq had a discussion about passion and Nozbe etc.

Passion seems to be what is driving most of these small companies, but it seems that quite often they somehow never get anywhere. There is a site that lists a huge number of what they call "GTD compatible" apps, most of which I never heard of: http://www.priacta.com/Articles/Comp...D_Software.php

I suppose the vast majority of those apps were born out of passion. And a wish to make money.

I myself still use Doit after having used Nirvana, but GTDNext is one I have been keeping my eyes on quite intently for a while. They are in an early phase still, but seem stable. Their approach is an unlimited action hierarchy and an apparent focus on enabling an automated task flow, differentiating between parallel and sequential actions etc. I find that a bit interesting, as you guys may know.

We have had those discussions before in this forum, and they tend to get quite lengthy .... ;-)
 

John Forrister

GTD Connect
Staff member
Hi Folke,

We have a post that advises developers what's okay to post.
http://gettingthingsdone.com/forum/...sts-all-developers-please-read-before-posting
Because the thread was what we ask developers not to post, I removed it. It's fine for a developer to mention their app in reply to a specific question. What's not okay is when developers use the forum to promote their apps. Usually we spot those and remove them before they use up valuable reply time from other forum users. While I don't like to delete a thread that has input from you or TesTeq or all the other users who are here for discussion instead of to push a product, I couldn't leave that one up. That thread was almost pure promotion, not only for the app but with a plug for the developer's other business thrown into the reply to TesTeq. To your point about lengthy threads, it would be great to have a lengthy thread about parallel/sequential actions, or your thoughts on all kinds of software, or the value of passion in software development, etc.

So, thanks for all your participation. We'll do our part to keep the forum a commercial-free place for you to express your thoughts on GTD and productivity.

Best,
John
 

PeterW

Registered
John Forrister said:
So, thanks for all your participation. We'll do our part to keep the forum a commercial-free place for you to express your thoughts on GTD and productivity.

Hi John,

I assume you've seen the other thread here where a number of us are wondering why the forums seem to have been neglected for some time? It seems to me that one of the key problems is with the forum software - when it was upgraded a while back it resulted in loss of functionality and ease of use, resulting in declining activity.

Is there any plan to address this or are forums not considered a worthwhile investment any more?
 

Folke

Registered
John,

Yes, I agree it is best to be bit careful. You did the right thing.

About passion (again) - what TesTeq asked about:

Passion seems to be a necessary driver for excellence and innovation. Without passion the results seem to be limited to just "professional" ("we're only in it for the money") - usually not too different from the average in that trade. Passionate people ("lovers" = "amateurs") seem to be the ones that deliver the nice extra touches and innovation.

Yet at the same time passion never seems to quite do the trick. It seldom seems to be sufficiently strong, well enough focused or long enough lasting.

I have a simple theory. I think it is like when car companies develop a new car model. I have understood that the typical development cost is about a billion US dollars for a new model (for a brand new model with a new name etc, not just a new year model). Now, how much about that model is really "new under the sun"? They have designed everything from the ground up, and still it is just a normal car - wheels, windshield .... nothing much new, really. But there is something, a difference that makes a difference - maybe a slightly different shape and slightly improved safety. In order to get to that result it was not possible for the company to just develop a "piece of shape" and a "piece of safety" and add that to an existing model - they had to spend maybe 99% of that billion just to reinvent a whole new car that in most respects is no better than any other car. That's how it works.

And I think it is the same in the GTD app business. Passionate people may have something in particular in mind that they know they can do much better. And since everything else about an app is quite well-known and commonplace they underestimate the cost of reinventing it. And then they lose their energy half-way. Maybe this is why Priacta's list of "GTD compliant" apps is so long and most of those apps so unimpressive?

Another danger with passion is that it is not always even aimed at delivering an improvement to the end user. It can be the kind of passion that a child feels when seeing a bunch of other kids flying kites that they themselves have built. The child thinks - and says - "I want to build one, too, and fly it". It does not matter to him or her whether that kite will be better (more beautiful, more stable, whatever). The only thing that matters to that child is "I want to do that, too" ("There are many like it, but this one is mine" ;-) )

I am not saying that any of those dangers apply to GTDNext (the original subject of the discussion) more than to anyone else, so please do not get me wrong in that sense. These dangers probably apply to all of us.

I just think that the very question about passion, which TesTeq brought up, opens up an extremely fascinating (and pandora-type) range of other questions. I suppose it all boils down to capability - skills, passion, concepts, resources, everything combined.

John, as for threads on projects (parallel/sequential, hierarchies) and other software features (such as filtering, priorities etc), I have written quite a few posts here in the past. Maybe it is time to revive some of those thoughts again, and see how people's opinions have evolved. Thanks for the tip.
 

Lydiak

Registered
Hi Folke,

Really enjoyed your thoughtful comments and questions on app development. Particularly resonates with me because my coworkers and I recently began working on a GTD mac app and we're really hoping to hit that sweet spot of plenty of passion combined with experience. Between us we have years of business, development, and design experience-- and a dream of something we think would be an amazing GTD app-- but we want to make sure that this app that we think is so great is actually something the GTD community would want. We don't want to build something that's better by a negligible amount, but something that really resonates with GTDers and helps solve this problem of finding workarounds for existing apps.

I'd love for you to take a look at our prototype and give me your honest thoughts-- if we're way off track with this, better to know now than later. (Just a note, something that's hard to see in the current prototype though is the idea that we have for smart tags that would allow you to tags something as "weekly" or "home" to have it come up during an intelligent time.)

I hope this is okay to post here-- I read the memo and thought this fell under the okay area-- but if not just let me know and I'll remove asap. John + team, thanks for fostering such a great community!

Thanks everyone!
 

Folke

Registered
Lydia,

Thanks for your kinds words, but please do not mistake me for something that I am not. There are many GTDers, and everyone is different. I am sure there are many whose thinking is similar to mine, but probably even more people who think totally differently. And we all honor GTD. You should be asking the people you would like to be helped by your app. What kinds of users are you really - really - after with GTDsimple?

At first sight GTDsimple strikes me as unusually pretty. That's a big plus, but it is takes more than a pretty face, of course.

It seems that GTDsimple - like quite a few other apps, but I cannot remember all the names - starts with addressing the ultimate super-noob and devotes a lot of attention to pointing out things like "collecting" and "actionable?" and "deferring" etc. I think that is probably great, but I am not totally sure. I am sure there is a market for it. FacileThings.com and Zendone.com are two companies that do precisely that brilliantly and seem to be appreciated for it. And I, too, appreciate people who are thorough in what they are doing. Doit, the app I am using myself, also covers that, and a million other things that I do not really need, but much less coherently and consistently - but overall they have a feature set that covers my needs a notch better than most.

The question for me (and some others, I am sure) is what follows behind that pretty surface. My two most recent apps have been Doit and Nirvana. Had I had a Mac I would probably have tried Things and Omnifocus, too. Those are the kinds of apps I tend to like most (or least little). I like Zendone in many ways, too, but not completely (they focus too much on reference integration etc for my taste). I am looking at GTDnext (quite similar name to yours) mainly because it has action hierarchies, which is something I like, not only for subprojects etc, but also for representing the 20 k and 30 k horizons.

Another thing I like in a GTD app is priority, and Doit has it. I use this as a review frequency indicator - most useful for me; most GTD apps do not dare to have that because David Allen perfectly correctly has pointed out negative things about some other, very specific types of interpretations of the term priority, and most GTD followers therefore shun priority in all of its forms like the plague. (David emphasizes priority especially at higher horizons, and plays it down for situational decision making during the day, and very strongly advises against priority staging, i.e. first A, then B, then C. )

One field I am very interested in a future GTD app is tagging (contextual categorization) and filtering. It seems to me that GTD perfectly correctly avoids soft, subjective planning dates (and, yes, indeed, I have always hated those, too) and instead focuses on situational decision making (context, time, energy, priority). Most apps (all, actually, as far as I know) have extremely crude tagging and filtering capabilities for such situational factors, though, and this leaves many users complaining about the length of their lists. One of the simplest and most powerful features an app could have is elimination filtering (NOT filtering). This would allow you to create a single and accurate list of suitable actions to consider this morning - allowing you to exlude @errands (if it is raining) and @John and @Mary (if they are sick) etc. To see ALL the good choices on ONE single screen. Why doesn't anybody have that? Exclusion filtering would also allow you to tag tasks much more precisely without incurring additional tagging work (e.g. if you tag a small minority that require @Silence you do not therefore need to tag all the rest with @Noisy just top be able to find them - you just exclude @Silence. But apps never have this exclude filtering, only include.)

Lydia, what are your plans for these types of features that would interest the fraction of GTDers that I belong to?
 

Lydiak

Registered
Hey Folke,

Thanks for the thorough insights! It’s really great to hear these sorts of concerns because it gives us a clearer idea of who it is we’re building this thing for. So the main idea behind GTDsimple is to make it simple enough that someone new to GTD could use with w/o being overwhelmed, but also robust enough that a hardcore GTDer like you could use it without feeling like it’s missing features. We’re trying to find that balance of enough features without it suffering from feature bloat, which we found was an issue with most of the GTD apps we’ve tried (eg. Doit, like you said, covers a bunch of things you don’t use).

We’re trying to get as much feedback in this phase as possible so that we’re able to build something based on the real needs of GTD users.

As for prioritizing as you mentioned, we’re also hesitant to have very strong priority integration, although the app will have the ability to drag & drop and right click (+keyboard shortcuts) to select “move to end” or “move to front,” allowing you to quickly order your to do list in the order you want.

And actually, it’s really awesome that you brought up exclusive vs inclusive tagging bc that’s EXACTLY an issue we were debating about, and the team was somewhat split on what would be best. Based on your thoughts, we decided to go with exclusionary tagging, which was what I was personally advocating for. So thanks for making the decision easy for us! :)

I’m not sure if you had the chance to try the interactive prototype, but if you have, what do you think of the integration of “future goals” into the app? We weren’t sure if it’s something that would be helpful to have so prominently, but we really wanted the app to have the focus on the actionable while keeping reminders of the bigger picture easily accessible.

Thanks again Folke for your time and insights—really appreciate it! :)
 

Folke

Registered
Lydia, when you say "interactive prototype" do you mean the "sneak peek"?

What you have there is something very "core GTD" - actions are actions, projects are projects, AoRs are AoRs, goals are goals etc etc, all listed separately. Many people prefer it like that, even when they use a computer. I suppose it is clear, clean, neat. Personally I prefer a hierarchy, which automates this and reduces the number of different lists - if an action belongs to a project, and if the project belong to an AoR, and if the AoR belongs to a 30 k group of AoRs or a goal, then all this "assignation" is done in one single step for the individual task by simply moving it into the right "project container". I like the fact that you can have future goals and future projects etc. I treat all these as part of my hierarchy - and make them "inactive", if I do not want their contents to clutter up my current lists (next, waiting etc).

As for inclusive vs exclusive filtering, I think both are useful, but for different purposes. I think you probably need both (a toggle etc). Very big congratulations on seeing the potential merits of exclusive filtering; you'll be quite a unique app and I think time will prove you right; more and more people will love it when they notice how much tagging work they save and when they notice they can have a filtered next list that lasts them all morning or all day - until something in their situation that day really changes and they have to adjust their filter - but their days of "random fishing" for tasks in every possible context will be over :)

As for priority, I cannot really blame you for hesitating. The whole topic about priority is so allergic, sore, swollen and infected in GTD circles that it often cannot even be debated rationally. Perhaps what you should do is simply forget about priority. Implement an "attention flag" instead (normal/default, lower/higher); this is very useful indeed. And it has nothing to do with priority, of course, as anyone can verify for themselves.

Manual drag and drop sorting of your next actions (or waiting for or someday actions) is an important feature, but it is not quite enough, because it is too troublesome to use all the time for each and every little thing. Often you want your stuff grouped automatically to get them at least roughly in the right position, and then just have the capability to manually adjust the position of those rare few tasks that you want in a very precise position. Or you may want to switch between alternative such groupings (e.g. by project or by context etc). (If you have an "attention flag" etc you'll want to see those markers clearly regardless of how your list is sorted).
 

John Forrister

GTD Connect
Staff member
PeterW said:
Hi John,

I assume you've seen the other thread here where a number of us are wondering why the forums seem to have been neglected for some time? It seems to me that one of the key problems is with the forum software - when it was upgraded a while back it resulted in loss of functionality and ease of use, resulting in declining activity.

Is there any plan to address this or are forums not considered a worthwhile investment any more?

Hi Peter,

I agree with you about the forum software. I spend a lot of time in it, and, like you and almost everyone I've heard from, don't like it. I am actively researching new forum software. Our requirements are somewhat complex, mostly because of how we integrate GTD Connect member accounts with forum accounts. Believe me, I'm campaigning for resources to be allocated for this project. I consider it a very worthwhile investment.
 

TesTeq

Registered
John Forrister said:
Our requirements are somewhat complex, mostly because of how we integrate GTD Connect member accounts with forum accounts.

To avoid problems I don't use GTD Connect member accounts with forum accounts integration. Now I am logged via forum interface only because previously the account integration didn't work and I don't want to test it again.
 

JamesT

Registered
John Forrister said:
We have a post that advises developers what's okay to post.

Hi John - First off, apologies for not checking the sticky post. (I should probably read those more often) I promise no more announcement posts!

On the topic of forum software - For your search, I would like to point you in the direction of http://www.discourse.org/ - I have no affiliation with this company. Just a happy customer. We use it for our forum and it is incredible. Everyone seems to like it. Best of all it is open source, so it is free.

If it would help, I'd be happy to talk to you about our experience with it and our developer is available to talk to your technical people about getting it installed.
 

John Forrister

GTD Connect
Staff member
JamesT said:
Hi John - First off, apologies for not checking the sticky post. (I should probably read those more often) I promise no more announcement posts!

On the topic of forum software - For your search, I would like to point you in the direction of http://www.discourse.org/ - I have no affiliation with this company. Just a happy customer. We use it for our forum and it is incredible. Everyone seem seems to like it. Best of all it is open source, so it is free.

If it would help, I'd be happy to talk to you about our experience with it and our developer is available to talk to your technical people about getting it installed.

Hi James, thanks very much for that link to Discourse. I just spent a couple minutes looking at it, and will dive in further in the next couple days.

No worries about the announcement. GTD forum readers want to hear about new software, but also want the forum to be commercial-free. We try to find a balance in there. If you ever feel that we're tilting too far in one direction, or applying rules unfairly, please let us know.
 

John Forrister

GTD Connect
Staff member
Folke said:
Testing, testing ... possible to write here today?

EDIT: Sorry, I used the wrong thread, see this thread for an explanation (problems with posting):

http://gettingthingsdone.com/forum/f...ems-to-be-down

Hi Folke,

My mistake! I thought that issue was fixed, but it's obviously not. I just tested and got the same "empty response" in Firefox that you reported. I'll go after it again and post an update as soon as it's ready for you to test. I apologize to you (and all) for the delay.
 

John Forrister

GTD Connect
Staff member
Folke said:
Testing, testing ... possible to write here today?

EDIT: Sorry, I used the wrong thread, see this thread for an explanation (problems with posting):

http://gettingthingsdone.com/forum/f...ems-to-be-down

Hi Folke, and all,

From my testing, it looks like this is resolved. I posted a couple of test threads in the Discuss Gear and Software forum, and posted replies to those. (I've since deleted those tests.)

And replying to existing threads is working, for example:
http://gettingthingsdone.com/forum/...acking-projects-and-multiple-next-steps/page3

Please give a try with a new thread or a reply to an existing thread, and let me know how it goes for you.

Best,
John
 

Folke

Registered
Testing, testing ...

EDIT: It took a looong time "Working", but it it did work :)
Thanks John
EDIT2: The edit above took just a second (no "Working" delay)
 

TesTeq

Registered
Folke said:
EDIT2: The edit above took just a second (no "Working" delay)

You can put your delayed "edit action" on your @WaitingFor list to comply with The Methodology.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
John Forrister said:
Please give a try with a new thread or a reply to an existing thread, and let me know how it goes for you.

I just tried to post something in a thread in the Discuss Getting Things Done section of the forum and got an "Empty Response" error. I've tried several times over the last few weeks and gotten the same result. If it helps I'm using a Chrome browser on a Win 7 PC.
 

manuelhe

Registered
Testing testing it took about 15 seconds for original submit. Now testing edit. Edit was much faster about 2 seconds
 
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