Is it too mechanic?

[Mic]

I wondered yesterday if taking everything out of your head does not go ever the limit.

I want to give you two imaginary examples:

Lets say you took a client in your car and went by your house for your wife to give hand his file on the way. Your wife came out of the house with the file, holding your young son's hand in her other hand, and just when you past by, you stopped for a second, and the client got the file through the open window. Just before you started going again, your son said somthing to his mother, and you loved the way she answered him - it was so tender and considerate you just loved her and wanted to tell her how much you admire her. But the traffic was awful and sombody tootled behind you, and the client was sitting by you - so you decided to do it tonight when you come back home and can speak privatly with your wife. When you get to the next traffic lights and wait for the green light, do you pick up your schedule to write it down for 9PM? Do you take out your Agenda list for your wife and write it there? Do you take out of your pocket your little notebook and write a note to be processed later in your office?

Second example:
Just going out of home after a quick lunch, your 10 year old son came with you to the door telling you that he had a bad day at school. You asked him what happend, and he told you that for years he kept on getting a 100 and not below 96 in every math exam held in class, and today was the first time he got 90! Although you were late for a meeting, you answered him with empathy, but couldn't have with him a longer coversation as you wanted, so running out to your car you thought to yourself you must talk with him again before he goes to sleep. Do you realy have to have it on a list to be done? Will your heart not be enough?

Mic

 

[kewms]

Although you were late for a meeting, you answered him with empathy, but couldn't have with him a longer coversation as you wanted, so running out to your car you thought to yourself you must talk with him again before he goes to sleep. Do you realy have to have it on a list to be done? Will your heart not be enough?

More than one parent has discovered that no, simply having a wish to talk to one's children *isn't* enough to make sure it gets done.

Katherine

 

[Mic]

More than one parent has discovered that no, simply having a wish to talk to one's children *isn't* enough to make sure it gets done.

Katherine

Katherine,

I also know that. What's bothering me is that GTD is ment to bring one to 'mind like water' - whick means that you are totaly present and live the moment as deeply as posible. I feel that folding an experience like the ones I gave into a note and feeling free and ready for the conversation with the client instead, somehow misses the target.

I don't suggest a better way, but I hope I expressed my feelings clearly enough so readers will be able to relate to the dilemma of - living the moment deeper - at least for another moment, if not even here and there during the day - or putting it back to the drawer of the system.

Isn't there any place for the drawer of the heart?

Mic

 

[sdann]

If you are forgetful, then I would put it on a list that you should tell your loved ones how much you appreciate them. You can never do enough of that.

If I'm not wrong, I think you are trying to say that the tactical action of capturing something that the heart should be able to recall on its own is overdoing it. Again this depends on one's ability to actually follow through. Capturing those things that are in your heart can include a myriad of things from the values you want for your family to playing ball with your son to achieving a family goal someday maybe. I think that is where we pursue our dreams. Being aware often only comes with the practical act of writing it down, digesting it and deciding what you want to do about it.

 

[kewms]

I also know that. What's bothering me is that GTD is ment to bring one to 'mind like water' - whick means that you are totaly present and live the moment as deeply as posible. I feel that folding an experience like the ones I gave into a note and feeling free and ready for the conversation with the client instead, somehow misses the target.

I don't suggest a better way, but I hope I expressed my feelings clearly enough so readers will be able to relate to the dilemma of - living the moment deeper - at least for another moment, if not even here and there during the day - or putting it back to the drawer of the system.

Isn't there any place for the drawer of the heart?

DA actually touches on this a little bit. I think he would say that having all your stuff completely under control makes it easier to do things like this in the moment. It's easier to make time to talk with your son if you know what you're *not* doing at that particular moment, if you know that the world *won't* come to an end if you actually go home on time in order to allow that conversation to happen.

So yes, in a fully established mature GTD system, you wouldn't necessarily need to keep a "drawer of the heart" in order to make sure that these kinds of conversations happen. But if it's a choice between making a note and forgetting to talk to your son *again,* making the note is by far the best choice.

Katherine

 

[Roger]

I would suggest that GTD is designed to help you make more and better instinctive, intuitive decisions about what to do, rather than replacing that process.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[cameron]

Katherine,

I also know that. What's bothering me is that GTD is ment to bring one to 'mind like water' - whick means that you are totaly present and live the moment as deeply as posible. I feel that folding an experience like the ones I gave into a note and feeling free and ready for the conversation with the client instead, somehow misses the target.

I don't suggest a better way, but I hope I expressed my feelings clearly enough so readers will be able to relate to the dilemma of - living the moment deeper - at least for another moment, if not even here and there during the day - or putting it back to the drawer of the system.

Isn't there any place for the drawer of the heart?

Mic

Either you abandon the client meeting because the family situation is too fraught to walk away from and therefore "remain in the moment" or you can decide that you must walk away from the situation and then do something about it later.

In the latter case, you can either choose to "remember" to speak to your son, or you can write it down to prompt you later. Writing it down to prompt you later does not preclude you from remembering the situation in your head, it's just allowing yourself a chance to not worry about it.

 

[Day Owl]

If you regularly talk with your son every evening, then you have already blocked out that time to be with him. When that time comes, you will naturally remember the particular subject you want to bring up, because it has been in your heart for less than a day and is still fresh.

So the question is not whether to write down a note on a specific issue, but whether to have regular "face time" with your child (a decision you should not be agonizing over, anyway).

 

[mcogilvie]

Isn't there any place for the drawer of the heart?

Sure, just make it an area of focus and review it periodically.

Seriously, what do you do when someone you care about needs you, and you have other responsibilities? If you just ignore everything else, you may feel virtuous, but you may lose other people's trust. If you can re-negotiate your responsibilities, you will be fine. However.. when I first became a parent, I remember reading an aphorism for parents of small children: "first things first, second things maybe, and the rest probably not."

 

[Mic]

... in a fully established mature GTD system, you wouldn't necessarily need to keep a "drawer of the heart" in order to make sure that these kinds of conversations happen. But if it's a choice between making a note and forgetting to talk to your son *again,* making the note is by far the best choice.

Katherine,

Let me expain myself. I do understand the efficiency factor, and that writing down will make sure that you *will* talk to your son and not forget and regret. If one feels that it's a choice between making a note and forgetting - he for sure should go ahead and make a note.

The point I was trying to raise was that somehow the collecting process has an affect of "closing" the subject for the moment. I feel that in emotional matters it lowers or shuts down feelings.

Yes, having everything out of your head is effective and productive, but I think this is a price we might be paying for it.

That's what I ment when I wrote 'drawer of the heart' - maybe there are things we should better keep in our heart. If they are important enough to us they will be done in the proper time, and if something does get lost, still our total emotional experience will be much deeper.

Mic

 

[Brent]

Thanks for the further explanation, Mic! I must admit to being confused at the connection between the example and the point you're making, though.

In your example, how would writing down a reminder to talk to your son later have shut down your feelings? Just because it's off your mind doesn't mean it's off your heart. When you then went back to talk to your son, would the reminder on your list somehow make you less empathetic to your son?

Are you thinking that it would better to be distracted by your son's problem for the rest of the day? That having this weighing on your mind would be beneficial in some way? (I don't know; it's why I'm asking.) Do you think your son would be happy to know that his problem was exhausting you all day?

Remember, you're human. You can't stop feeling (well, unless you're a sociopath, which clearly you're not!). Putting it off your mind won't stop you from feeling about it; it will just put those emotions in appropriate contexts.

I'm just not getting it, I'm afraid. To me, this is like saying we should be ruled by our emotions; that any emotional problem should dictate our response. We should feel those feelings, yes, but we should also deal with them. Not all problems can be dealt with immediately, and in my mind it's better to have a reminder to deal with them than to not have one.

But, again, maybe I'm just not understanding your point. Could you explain further, please?

 

[Mic]

Hi Brent, and thanks for the interest. I will try to explain myself.

In your example, how would writing down a reminder to talk to your son later have shut down your feelings? Just because it's off your mind doesn't mean it's off your heart. When you then went back to talk to your son, would the reminder on your list somehow make you less empathetic to your son?

Of course not, but if I think about the issue a few times during the day because I did not put it in my lists, I think I might well react better, because it will get better digested. If, on the other hand, I get home, take out my palm, look at my @home list, recall this issue for the first time and say - oh-ya I have to talk with my kid - and just go and do it - well, yes, maybe I will do it less than the best I can.

I am not saying that this is a way for many issues to be taken care of, but it could be that a small percentage - only such things - would better stay in our mind and not out of it. (And you will not be too distracted if you only decide that you ARE going to talk with him - even without writing that down).

(If it's something you can do only tomorrow, than yes, maybe you'd better write it down, because perspective changes after you sleep).

Further more, if I may add something, can you attest from your own experience what would hapen if your spouse or kid will see you looking at a list and then start talking with them about something of that sort? I don't think they will like to find out that something of their deep emotional interest has become an 'item' for you. And if they find it wrong, may be it is wrong, even if they don't find out about it.

Mic

 

[cameron]

Of course not, but if I think about the issue a few times during the day because I did not put it in my lists, I think I might well react better, because it will get better digested. If, on the other hand, I get home, take out my palm, look at my @home list, recall this issue for the first time and say - oh-ya I have to talk with my kid - and just go and do it - well, yes, maybe I will do it less than the best I can.

Mic

do you go off half-cocked on the rest of your actions? If not then why do you think this action/project is different?
The bottom line is that you feel that it is immoral to write anything down that's relevant to the heart. that's not my opinion but I'm not trying to try and convert you.

However what do you plan to do when you have 5 or 6 affairs of the heart to remember?

 

[sdann]

Further more, if I may add something, can you attest from your own experience what would hapen if your spouse or kid will see you looking at a list and then start talking with them about something of that sort? I don't think they will like to find out that something of their deep emotional interest has become an 'item' for you. And if they find it wrong, may be it is wrong, even if they don't find out about it.

Mic

I agree with you that there are some inappropriate times to refer to your list, either to capture or to review, whether it's emotional or not. This applies to some family, friends, customers, bosses etc. (why are you busy with your blackberry?) You can try to explain it to them, but that doesn't always work.

Regarding putting emotional interests onto a list, I will have to agree with the others that doing so does not take the emotional value out of something or even someone. On the other hand, I do think it can give you a more objective view. Maybe I can say this because I'm a woman which IMHO are dealing with emotion issues more frequently than men (not in all cases I know).

 

[Oogiem]

Of course not, but if I think about the issue a few times during the day because I did not put it in my lists, I think I might well react better, because it will get better digested. If, on the other hand, I get home, take out my palm, look at my @home list, recall this issue for the first time and say - oh-ya I have to talk with my kid - and just go and do it - well, yes, maybe I will do it less than the best I can.

I am not saying that this is a way for many issues to be taken care of, but it could be that a small percentage - only such things - would better stay in our mind and not out of it. (And you will not be too distracted if you only decide that you ARE going to talk with him - even without writing that down).

(If it's something you can do only tomorrow, than yes, maybe you'd better write it down, because perspective changes after you sleep).

Further more, if I may add something, can you attest from your own experience what would hapen if your spouse or kid will see you looking at a list and then start talking with them about something of that sort? I don't think they will like to find out that something of their deep emotional interest has become an 'item' for you. And if they find it wrong, may be it is wrong, even if they don't find out about it.

Mic

A couple of things jumped out at me in this. First off, just because I write something emotional down on a list doesn't mean I never think about it. I also refer to my lists regularly so I will see it if I am in a position to do anything about it. For me at least keeping emotional things in my brain is a guarantee that I will do a worse job when it comes time to talk rather than a better one.

And from personal experience. My hubby and I do much better when we do have and refer to lists of items, most especially the emotional ones compared to talking off the cuff.

Keeping things "in my mind' is a prescription for shallow thoughts. I can't keep more than one or 2 in my mind at a time and I may have several emotionally charged issues I need to deal with. The very act of adding to a list makes me value the importance of it and make more of an effort to do it right. So I guess overall I strongly disagree that stuff should be kept in your mind, I find that's worse, especially for things of the heart as you put it.

 

[Brent]

...if I think about the issue a few times during the day because I did not put it in my lists, I think I might well react better, because it will get better digested. If, on the other hand, I get home, take out my palm, look at my @home list, recall this issue for the first time and say - oh-ya I have to talk with my kid - and just go and do it - well, yes, maybe I will do it less than the best I can.

Ah! I think you may have mis-understood an aspect of David's explanation of GTD.

Putting something on a list does not completely remove it from your mind. It ensures that it does not jump up and grab your conscious attention like a needy dog.

You will still be thinking about this problem subconsciously. Indeed, when you have spare time, the issue may float up to your conscious attention. Putting on a list ensures that it does not scream at you, but it will undoubtedly whisper.

The subconscious does huge amounts of work behind the scenes, of course; it's arguably the origin of inspiration. How often do we "back-burner" something, only to "suddenly" realize a solution several weeks later. That solution came from our subconscious, that was steadily chewing on the problem over those weeks.

By putting something on a list, you're not stopping your subconscious from working on the problem. You're just keeping that problem from interrupting your conscious attention unless you want it to.

Further more, if I may add something, can you attest from your own experience what would hapen if your spouse or kid will see you looking at a list and then start talking with them about something of that sort?

Yes. I'm not married and have no kids of my own, but I do a fair amount of work with tweens at my church. They ask what my index cards are for, and I explain that they're my reminders for what I want to talk with people about. They usually say, "Oh, cool." Then they wait patiently if I ever have to check my lists. I do it with my parents, too; when I visit, before I leave their house, I'll pull out my @Parents list and check it.

They appreciate that I don't leave my interactions with them to chance and my imperfect memory, and that I'm important enough to them to spend time writing down things about them. Who wouldn't?

Let me lob the ball back at you, metaphorically: Have you explained your situation to your son? Have you explained why you have these lists, and what they're supposed to do for you? Have you asked your son if he has any problems with it?

 

[kewms]

They appreciate that I don't leave my interactions with them to chance and my imperfect memory, and that I'm important enough to them to spend time writing down things about them. Who wouldn't?

Let me lob the ball back at you, metaphorically: Have you explained your situation to your son? Have you explained why you have these lists, and what they're supposed to do for you? Have you asked your son if he has any problems with it?

This is an important point. Having an @Agenda list for a family member can come across as cold and uncaring -- like the person is just another To Do item -- but can also be a way to show that you value the person and want to make sure they get the attention they deserve. It's all in how you present it.

Katherine

 

[Mic]

Hi All,

Thank you for all of your responses.

I initiated this thread to see how everybody feels from his experience about the issue. Sometimes trying out a thought you have takes a long time, and can even damage. It's much better to ask people around you if this thought makes sense to them - as long as they realy think and visualize your situation in front of themselves.

Thanks again
Mic