Sleep Issues: Amount Of Trouble Waking

[jkgrossi]

Sure... I understand all that, and am sort of a "productivity geek" myself! I just have to take a step back sometimes and ask myself (when presented with questions such as this one) at what point is it "too much".

In my opinion, too look for ways to exist on 4 hours of sleep just so that you can find more time to be productive i.e. to get stuff done (and this is just one example) is missing the big picture.

 

[severance1970]

Sure... I understand all that, and am sort of a "productivity geek" myself! I just have to take a step back sometimes and ask myself (when presented with questions such as this one) at what point is it "too much".

The answer is elusive because it's the wrong question. The implication of this thread is that people who sleep half as much are twice as productive rather than half as awake. I defy anyone to provide evidence, beyond dubious anecdotal testimonies like Trump's, that people who sleep less accomplish more.

I used to work in the film industry, on movie sets where 12-to-18-hour days are common. What I observed for the most part were crew members "forgetting" instructions, asking to have things repeated, looking at their watches, griping, arguing, etc. The same scene that would be shot in 4 takes at the beginning of the day might need 10 takes in the 12th hour. This counterproductivity was obvious to everyone except to the producers and directors, who were obsessed with milking every drop of labor the could get, even if the speed and quality of the labor suffered.

I think that the quality of those "extra four hours" being coveted here will inevitably be of the type that, in a more racist era, was called "CP time," or "colored people time." Having no ability to openly disobey their "owners," slaves would often execute their tasks as inefficiently as possible in silent protest. The same principle applies on an intrapersonal level: yes, it's possible to look busy for four more hours, and it might even massage your vanity. But your body and unconscious will resent it and deprive you of the energy needed to make the longer transaction worthwhile.

jkgrossi, I realize your question is more fundamental: Is the point of life to be more productive? But since this thread emerged in the context of increasing productivity, I'm arguing that, even on that debatable standard, sleep deprivation is counterproductive.

 

[jkgrossi]

jkgrossi, I realize your question is more fundamental: Is the point of life to be more productive? But since this thread emerged in the context of increasing productivity, I'm arguing that, even on that debatable standard, sleep deprivation is counterproductive.

I couldn't agree more, and that was the original point of my posts. There reaches a point of diminishing returns with regard to productivity (which you witnessed first-hand during your career in the film industry). I don't see the point in short-changing your sleep because the fact is, it's not going to make you more "productive".

Now granted, it's useful to emulate the habits of those who are successful in an area in which you yourself want to be successful, but I think one needs to evaluate the usefulness of each of those habits on their own, outside of the context of the whole (i.e. realistically, how instrumental is the fact that Trump operates on 4 hours of sleep per night in his overall success?)

 

[Arduinna]

Right now, I am fine with 5 hours a night. I rarely want more than 6.5 anymore. I think you need less sleep as you get older. If I'm tired during the day, I'll lay down for 15 minutes. I get to the threshhold of sleep and at the moment I'd go under, pop, I'm awake and refreshed and can get up.

I believe there's such a thing as a sleep metabolism, and that people have differing needs for sleep because their bodies require more, or less of it. There's also the issue of sleep hygeiene, or whether the conditions under which one rests are conducive to the highest-quality sleep. I don't sleep as deeply or as well if my feet are not warm, for example, so I wear sleep booties over my sleep socks, and it makes a world of difference. So does removing all light sources from view, and that includes digital clocks.

A number of successful people I've known have needed 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night, rarely more. They've also been early birds, and only one of them ever used an alarm clock. Of course, the only reason I know this is the fact that they spend part of that found time bragging about how little rest they need compared to the rest of us, and how much they can get done before 6AM. Shame they don't come equipped with snooze buttons themselves.

 

[AdamK]

A couple of thoughts on this topic:

- First and foremost, check out "Sleep Thieves" by Stanley Coren (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-6223704-1837634?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's pretty fantastic.
- The 7-9 hours needed is something that's been established in our systems for years and years but Coren posits that the big change in our desire for less sleep is thanks to Edison's lightbulb. With light available anytime we want it (and in any quantity), we have dramatically changed how we approach the day.
- There are countless studies on how sleep deprivation affects learning, thinking, skills, etc. When I get the right amount of sleep, I feel like I can conquer the world. The challenge in structuring your day to get enough sleep.
- Regarding getting up in the morning, my wife and I have plugged the lamps on our nightstands into a digital timer that plugs into the wall. The timer turns on the lights about 20 minutes before the alarm goes off. It makes a big difference. Light is known to have a huge impact on our sleepiness and wakefulness. It's much easier to get up to a bright room than it is to a dark room. Try it.

 

[TesTeq]

Re: Sleep Issues: Amount Of & Trouble Waking

How to get up in the morning? The bigger discipline is the discipline to go to bed earlier the night before. But with 300 cable channels and the Internet it's harder to do.

Fortunately cable TV provider forgot to connect my house to the network. They put a cable in the whole area four or five years ago but then lost an interest in connecting houses :lol: .
The TV cable is two meters from my gate! :lol:
So I am saving my time and money - we have seven free TV channels available without cable or satellite dish and that's enough.
TesTeq

 

[Jamie Elis]

81/2 plus an hour of quiet on either end

Yes, I can appear to function and seem to carry out my resoponsibilities on less but I pay a price, just as described by Rainier to begin to optimize my functioning, to be healthy in exercise and diet, I need 81/2 and if stressed maybe more. It took me a long time to learn this. Also, I have learned not to go into sleep debt becuase stuff can happen that interfers with sleep (a mouse in the attic, a storm, coughing, a deadline), if one had exhausted the reserve, you are in trouble then. There is lots and lots of research on accidents and misjudgements that are associated with even small losses of sleep such as when the clocks are set ahead, traffic accidents go up and doctors in training make more mistakes.

 

[Cikub]

Re: Sleep Issues: Amount Of & Trouble Waking

How to get up in the morning? The bigger discipline is the discipline to go to bed earlier the night before. ....

Hear, hear! If you are over-tired in the morning, it's mentally less challenging to climb into bed at 9pm than it is to force yourself out of bed at 6am when you didn't get to bed until 12am.

Also, try the supplement melatonin. Take one after dinner and it may help you get to sleep and feel more rested when you wake.

C

 

[adamsoprano]

I did 6 hours last night. Felt fine. Kinda sleepy during boring Lord of the Rings though my wife got pissed at me for sleeping :lol: Didn't really affect my mind when doing normal tasks. Gonna try this for a week then see what it's like 5 hours a night for a week. If I can take that we'll take it down to 4 a day and see how it goes 8)

 

[GeTe.de]

If I can take that we'll take it down to 4 a day and see how it goes 8)

You should be aware that this can have psychic (?) repercussions. One of my flatmates while at Uni studied very hard for his exam (his second time around). So hard that he cut down his sleeping hours and slept not more than 4 hours a night. One evening he told us that he was hearing voices in the night, and having bad dreams. Only a few days before, I had read that sleep deprivation can have exactly these consequences (and worse). After he introduced a normal sleep pattern, he slept better, no voices anymore, learnt better and he made his exams!

You should also know that younger people need MORE sleep that older people (despite what they may think ;-) ). So teens and twens will more likely need a regular sleep of 8 hours, whereas a 60-year old will be fine with 5-6 hours.

I just think it's not worth deprieving yourself of sleep, and be drowsy all day, when you could sleep longer and then be really wide awake for the day.

Nuff said . I am going to bed now (22.30h), because I need to get more sleep .

 

[Unregistered]

I only sleep 3 hours a Night

How unhealthy is that?

 

[jmcorey]

Sleep hours

Let me preface what I am about to say that I am a board certified neurologist and Assistant Professor of Neurology at a prestigious American medical school. I see patients for sleep problems at least once per week.

Most of what has been said here is true. Each person needs the amount of sleep that he needs. Most people's need requirement in the normal distribution of 7-9 hours. The amount of sleep that people need as they age decreases, and elderly people have a harder time getting more sleep.

There are a few people who run on a higher amount of energy than the rest of us, they need less sleep, they perform well in lots of circumstances when the rest of us are tired, etc. These people are labeled "hypomanic". We had a joke in medical school about what to call these people, because many of them excel in academic medicine where intensity and time shortages rule. We called them "damn lucky."

It wouldn't surprise me that the person who wrote that article about getting only 4 hours of sleep really only needs 4 hours a night. A faculty member I work with in my department is always on the go, has tons of NIH grants and recruits lots of private money, has very many people working for her, and travels nationally an average of once every two weeks. She needs 3-4 hours of sleep a night and can function well on that. She is hypomanic. Most of us are not. I am not. That puts us at a comparative disadvantage in our achievement addicted society. Oh, well, I guess I am a mere mortal.

The post immediately prior to this provided a good example that there are serious neurological and psychiatric effects to not getting enough sleep. The reactions of hearing voices and seeing things that aren't there are called psychotic reactions, and having them is psychosis. This is very serious and can get you hospitalized on a psychiatric ward. People in our society are chronically sleep deprived, and driving when drowsy is more dangerous than driving after drinking. More dangerous. That is NOT an invitation to drink and drive, just a point to convince you that it is dangerous.

In my opinion, the purpose of GTD is not to make you a billionaire. The purpose is that that you do not go insane. Keeping track of agreements, projects, tasks, having them all in your sight so that you can make informed decisions and stay relaxed with your many commitments to yourself and others is the purpose. Use GTD in such a way that you can get the amount of sleep that you need.

 

[carrdwight]

One Benefit of Using a Palm as Alarm Clock

I have found that in addition to the alarm sound on the palm, the light is a wonderful aide in waking. I have two wake-up alarms set two minutes apart, I found that I cannot find the snooze button in the early morning and when using only one alarm I would often hit OKAY and go back to sleep. Anyway, after each alarm, I found that the light from the screen, a T3 with backlite set pretty brite, really helps me to wake up. I usually just shine it towards me face and, without even opening my eyes, the light is very comforting and wakeful. Additionally, it doesn't bother my wife, as it did when I used a normal alarm clock and hit snooze 15-7million times each morning.

I also recently bought a timer switch to turn-on a light in the bedroom about the same time the alarm is set to go off.

I usually have to wake up well before daylight and using light to wake up is really helpful for me.

Dwight...

 

[alsa]

I also wake up to either my Palm (Clie TH55 actually) or my cell phone.

In my cell phone, I set the vibrating alarm to a certain time and then put the phone under my pillow. The cell phone vibrates the pillow and I always wake up. With auditory alarms, I tend to have a harder time hearing them. (Yeah, I am one of those people who need loud alarms).

If I use my Palm, I set a program on it called PocketTunes to tune into a radiostation online and then set the volume kind of high. I fall asleep listening to something audio on my Palm (like an audiobook or a pre-recorded radioshow) putting little earphones in my ears (they don't hurt at all if I change sides in the night). In the morning, Palm wakes up, tunes into radiostation online, and I wake up to that. But I don't do this all the times, more like a couple of times a week. The cell phone is my main waking machine. Lately, I tend to wake up within the same time slot regularly, so often I wake up almost at the exact time that I was planning on waking up anyway.

I think that the need for optimal amount of sleep cannot be underestimated. I am from the "7-9 hours a night" school. There's no way I can function properly on 6 or less hours on a continuous basis. Maybe 2-3 days in a row, but that's it. After that I crash. I get headaches, and my general irritability levels are up. Coffee in this case (or I know many people drink Mountain Dew) is like throwing money at our public schools without looking at the root cause -- it doesn't work long term.

I believe that one's overall health depends quite a bit on the amount and quality of sleep. I hate to say it but 7 hours is minimum for most people. I think the 4-5 hours people are fooling themselves.