The question about actions I have to do

[Folke]

It's not a command, it's a reminder.

I understand. It could sit in Someday/Maybe or in reference. I have things there, too.

Also, there are some pure-pleasure things that can't be done without some planning. Reading a book may be pure pleasure, but you can't impulsively read it the moment that you want to unless you own it.

Yes. Purchasing the book etc is something I would tend to put on my list, too. It is something I want "done".

It is really difficult to pinpoint what makes us put some things, but not others, on our lists. I am sure we all have tons of things we do not put on our lists. I would guess that most people do not (normally) put "Eat breakfast", "Take a shower" or "Watch the news" on their list (unless there is something very special going on that day), but I could be wrong there, too, just as I apparently was about reading novels.

I believe many of us are happy to leave a lot of stuff to the "autopilot". It is a bit like delegating - an internal delegation from the conscious, planning mind to the subconscious mind. We cannot know for sure that the subconscious mind will handle it in the best possible way (it probably won't), but we have no worries about it. We enjoy the freedom of not having to decide anything, just taking it as it comes. (And we can always hit the emergency brakes if it gets totally out of hand.)

Edit: Although I could be wrong about the "worry" ("fear") aspect, I somehow still believe this has something to do with it. But maybe the word is a bit strong. If I am the tiniest bit "worried" about perhaps forgetting about a particular excellent opportunity (to take a shower or read a certain book or whatever) I will be inclined to put it on my list, just to be on the safe side, but if I see no danger or negative consequences of forgetting, then I will be just as happy to leave it to the "autopilot".

 

[Oogiem]

It's not a command, it's a reminder. And it's not a "do X!" reminder, it's "A while ago you told me to remind you, next time you're in this context, that you might feel like doing X."

Also, there are some pure-pleasure things that can't be done without some planning.

Exactly! I can't suddenly decide to weave historically accurate fabric for a late Viking era gown unless I have first researched it, have the wool spun and so on. Those are steps in a project that I need to document. It may be an inactive project for now, or I might do a bit of work on it then move it back to inactive for a while but if I don't document it and where I am I'll lose the work I did up to then.

Plus there is the factor that if your GTD lists ONLY have things that are "work" you will resist looking at them. Having fun stuff sprinkled in is a great way to keep motivated to USE those lists to manage your life.

GTD is about not having to have a thought more than once. So capturing all those other things is a good thig. It frees up mental space to work on whatever is important to you right now.

 

[Oogiem]

Edit: Although I could be wrong about the "worry" ("fear") aspect, I somehow still believe this has something to do with it. But maybe the word is a bit strong. If I am the tiniest bit "worried" about perhaps forgetting about a particular excellent opportunity (to take a shower or read a certain book or whatever) I will be inclined to put it on my list, just to be on the safe side, but if I see no danger or negative consequences of forgetting, then I will be just as happy to leave it to the "autopilot".

Why do things on your lists have to have negative consequences for you to consider putting them there?

That is the basic thing that I just can't even fathom. To me it seems like you are using GTD only to deal with drudgery and painful things. And that to me seems a total waste of what GTD has to offer. GTD provides a structure for so much more than just the mundane and negative things to remember.

That's what still confuses me about your approach. I just can't understand why you don't consider it important to provide support for remembering things that do not have fear or negative consequences attached to them.

 

[Folke]

I just can't understand why you don't consider it important to provide support for remembering things that do not have fear or negative consequences attached to them.

Oh, I see. Well, that's just a semantic simplification, but I can see that maybe the word negative can sound a bit negative. To remember to pick up a $100,000,000 jackpot from the lottery would certainly be a positive thing (IMO), so it would be a negative thing to forget about it and not have that money, so I would write it down. Most of the things on my list are positive things, that I will enjoy doing and to get done, and which I expect to have positive consequences, and therefore also a negative consequence, relatively speaking, if I fail to do them.

But fair enough. You do have a point. A very good one. Thank you. It is probably better to just refer to this as "consequences worth considering", without delving into whether they are positive or negative (there is probably always a duality, anyway, and it gets unnecessarily philosophical).

To remember to watch the news normally has no expected consequences whatsoever worth considering (IMO), so I would not write that down. And in my case, the same goes for reading a novel or watching a movie. If it happens, it happens. I am equally happy either way, as long as whatever I did felt "right" in some way.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[Gardener]

I would guess that most people do not (normally) put "Eat breakfast", "Take a shower" or "Watch the news" on their list (unless there is something very special going on that day), but I could be wrong there, too, just as I apparently was about reading novels.

Hmm. The "Watch the news" example makes me think of a possible way to explain how I see this--at least, if you use a DVR.

I would never need to set an alarm to tell myself to watch the news, because I can record the news on my Tivo, and watch it whenever I please.

Imagine that you told someone that you record the news on the Tivo, and that person said, "But why? What negative consequence is there to not watching the news? Why are you so worried about missing the news that you would Tivo it? I normally only Tivo things that I'm afraid to miss. If there's no consequence to missing it, it seems strange to record it. Why would you want to essentially command yourself to watch the news? I prefer more flexibility in my life than that."

And you would probably stare at that person and explain that, well, recording something isn't a command to yourself, and it isn't about worry, it's just something that gives you more freedom of action, more options. It's there if you want it, and if you don't, you just delete it.

That's how I feel about your reaction to putting pure-pleasure, recreational things in our GTD lists. It's not that I overcome a negative, fear, obligation vibe in order to put those things on the lists. There is no such vibe, any more than there's a negative, fear, obligation vibe to recording something on the Tivo.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Sergey Gamayunov]

Oh, how many posts are here.

Well, I would like to say a few words about my problem. Before I begin, let me say that I'm not a native English speaker, so my sentence about "I should play guitar, I have to... I must" was understood incorrectly. Of course, I like play guitar. Nevertheless, I know, that plaing guitar is WORK, and it's sometimes difficult and hard, and sometimes I prefer to watch some stupid movie instead practice in music. Thereby, I NEED to put this actions in my system.

About calendar.

In my personal GTD-system I put some actions in calendar only when actions are connected with specific time or day. This connection should be firm and immovable, for example I have concert tickets and I put time of concert in my schedule. My schedule is landscape of my day, every day! I can not put "Create some new music ideas" at 6 AM, if I could do it at 7, or maybe not do it at all.

About lists.

Things in my to-do-lists are of two types of actions: action from some project (for example, practice bars 10-17 in piece) or single action (buy some milk). This things are created, performed and ended. I see a some kind of life cycle of the action. But action "try to compose some music" is permanent. This action can not be fully completed. Also I can not plan that I am going to compose this particular song, because I can not (nobody could) control the creative processes.

Results.

Most likely I'll create a special "creative" list. It will contain reminders about my daily actions I should do. For example:

1. Play guitar at least 30 minuts per day.
2. Read one English article
3. Improve my English skills with grammar
4. Do some exercises

If I could see this list every day, probably I'll make some habits with that, and one day will come when I will not need this list.

PS Thank you all, it was very good experience.

PSS This post doesn't mean that I get out. I'm still here and want to keep talking with you)

 

[Folke]

That's how I feel about your reaction to putting pure-pleasure, recreational things in our GTD lists. It's not that I overcome a negative, fear, obligation vibe in order to put those things on the lists. There is no such vibe, any more than there's a negative, fear, obligation vibe to recording something on the Tivo.

Does that make any sense?

Well, yes in a way, but I think we probably simply have a case of miscommunication. (And I definitely do not avoid putting things on my lists just because they are recreational. That sounds totally alien to me.)

When I was grasping for a possible explanation for why we do put some things on our lists, but not others, I was indeed using negative words such as "fear" etc in an attempt to put my finger on what it might be. But as I already explained in my last post above, this is probably just one side of the coin. There is probably always (as far as I can see now, anyway) always both a positive and a negative component, and it is better to describe it in neutral terms. You put something on your list to improve your situation (positive), and therefore if you fail to do it the situation fails to improve (negative). It is probably best to express this more neutrally, for example "has consequences", "makes a difference" etc.

Your Tivo example is good. You record the news just to have it available in case you want to watch it later. And that is how I buy books, too. I buy them and put them in the bookshelf just in case I want to read them sometime. And we may even put it on our next action list to record/buy this program/book, if we do not have the tools for recording/ordering handy. So the procurement part of it we apparently both do.

Why do we do that with those particular things? We certainly do not record every program or buy every book. It seems fair to assume that with these particular ones we foresee that it is not unlikely that we will feel "Oh, I so much wanted to watch/read this now ..." and if that should happen we will so much prefer the positive consequence "I am so very happy that I did record/buy it" to the negative reaction "I am so angry at myself for not recording/buying it". In other words, it is a matter of consequences, in this case the consequence of a significant enough emotion. But if we believe that we will not care one way or the other about that particular program/book - if we think we will be just as happy doing some other activity - then we will not record/buy it.

Assuming that we now have that recording or book or musical instrument in our possession, do we want to make a note or reminder of some sort of actually using it? Do we see a significant consequence of using it (of watching it, reading it, playing it) or of not using it (leaving it by the wayside)? Are we committed to doing it? Apparently many people are, and give it the full treatment - create repeating actions, checklists, calendar entries, even make a whole project of it. Maybe these people attach hopes and dreams to it, and see consequences of using/not using these particular things? I often don't.

Maybe that's the only little difference between us? I usually fail to see that reading/using/watching that particular thing has any significant consequence to me. To me it is just one possible pleasure among countless others that are constantly available, and it does not matter which pleasure I choose or at what time. And I do not need a daily repeating task that says "Take pleasure in something"; that would seem like a huge overkill; I take pleasure in lots of things already as it is. Does that make sense?

 

[TesTeq]

"Create some new music ideas[/I]" at 6 AM, if I could do it at 7, or maybe not do it at all.

I often create appointments with myself to make sure that something will be done. And these appointments are my most unmovable calendar items because I am the most important person in my life!

 

[bcmyers2112]

Of course, I like play guitar. Nevertheless, I know, that plaing guitar is WORK, and it's sometimes difficult and hard, and sometimes I prefer to watch some stupid movie instead practice in music. Thereby, I NEED to put this actions in my system.

If you desire to play the guitar strongly enough you'll do it regardless of whether you've "GTD'd" it or not. If you don't have the motivation it won't matter where you put it in your "system." GTD can help you clarify outcomes and next actions but can't give you the motivation to do them, and it sounds like your issue is one of motivation. Unfortunately there is no plug-in-and-solve formula for that.

Some of the times I've been the most effective at accomplishing the right things are the times when I've been sloppiest about GTD.

I'm not arguing against GTD. I still use it. But you need to keep it in perspective. Well-manicured lists are no substitute for achievement.

 

[bcmyers2112]

GTD is about not having to have a thought more than once. So capturing all those other things is a good thig. It frees up mental space to work on whatever is important to you right now.

Actually I've found that when I've been too granular about GTD it's created more mental stress, not less. For example, at one time after I first started with GTD if I saw a TV commercial for a movie I might want to see I would make a point to jot it down, toss the note into my inbasket, "process" it by putting it in a checklist until one day I thought, "Seriously?"

Same with walking my dog. I used to have that on a checklist of habits because perish the thought I didn't have every daily habit listed somewhere. Until one day I realized I see my dogs every day and I'm smart enough to know they need to be walked and when it's appropriate to do so.

Again I'm not arguing against GTD -- I still practice it. But I'm OK with having a thought more than once. And recognizing just how much I can leave on "cruise control" has helped me come closer to achieving a "mind like water" -- just as much as keeping next actions and waiting for and projects lists.

 

[Oogiem]

For example, at one time after I first started with GTD if I saw a TV commercial for a movie I might want to see I would make a point to jot it down, toss the note into my inbasket, "process" it by putting it in a checklist until one day I thought, "Seriously?"

I do that all the time. Why you ask? Because then when we're looking for a movie to get on Netflix we have a ready made list of ones we thought might be interesting, it gives us a place to start. takes only a few seconds to do and makes life easier/simpler/more fun. It's not like we can go to a movie theatre to watch a movie easily. We have a single screen theatre in town struggling to get a digital projector so they can get current movies and the next nearest is a 45 minute drive away. For a real multiplex like in cities we have to drive 75 miles one way. That's EXACTLY the sort of thing I like to do using GTD tools. Although for us it's never by seeing it on a TV show but by watching movie premiers from other Netflix stuff. Only get a couple TV stations here too.

 

[Folke]

GTD is about not having to have a thought more than once.

I'm OK with having a thought more than once.

I am also OK with having the same thought more than once. Moreover, you cannot really stop your brain from having these spontaneous impulses, even if you write them down. GTD can do a lot of good things, but it cannot stop your brain. But if a thought occurs over and over, knowing that it is already on the list may assuage the sense of importance or urgency that might otherwise entail the impulse, and may make it easier to just let it go.

And that brings me back to the topic of why we put some things, but not others, on our lists. I still believe our perception of consequences has a lot to do with this:

Because then when we're looking for a movie to get on Netflix we have a ready made list of ones we thought might be interesting, it gives us a place to start. takes only a few seconds to do and makes life easier/simpler/more fun.

The consequence of not having all these nice movies conveniently listed would be a sense of irritation for you at the time when you want to find a really good movie quickly and would have to do unwanted research at the wrong time. Having them listed gives you instant pleasure and relief, and perhaps also the feeling that the movie has been carefully selected and is a very good choice. So for you it is obviously worth the effort to keep these lists. That's perfectly fine.

For somebody who does not care equally much what movie he watches, or whether he watches a movie at all, or perhaps instead reads a book or goes out or calls somebody for a chat, it would probably not be worth the effort to keep such lists. And that's perfectly fine, too.

I do not believe this is a matter of methodology (GTD) as such. It is a very personal matter of how detailed we need to be before we reach the point where more detail does not seem to increase our chances to be satisfied. This goes not only for recreational activities. It goes for everything we might conceivably put on our lists. For example, we all have some limit for how far we can bother to break down a given project into tasks and steps etc. Or listing all the meals we are going to eat or all the showers we are going to take. At some point we do not see that anything is gained by detailing it any further or even listing it at all. We feel that we can safely play it by ear. But where we draw those lines is a totally personal matter, and even for a given person the degree of detail can probably vary a lot from one type of activity to another - probably depending on how that person perceives the potential consequences of having or not having those particular types of details listed.

 

[bcmyers2112]

I am also OK with having the same thought more than once. Moreover, you cannot really stop your brain from having these spontaneous impulses, even if you write them down. GTD can do a lot of good things, but it cannot stop your brain. But if a thought occurs over and over, knowing that it is already on the list may assuage the sense of importance or urgency that might otherwise entail the impulse, and may make it easier to just let it go.

I agree 100%.

But where we draw those lines is a totally personal matter, and even for a given person the degree of detail can probably vary a lot from one type of activity to another - probably depending on how that person perceives the potential consequences of having or not having those particular types of details listed.

Like Kelly Forrister says, there are two questions you can ask yourself to help decide whether a particular task is necessary: "What's the payoff if I do this? What's the risk if I don't?" The same could be said for the degree to which anything in your life requires "GTD'ing." But the answers to those questions will vary based on the individual.

Again, I agree with you 100%.

 

[Folke]

"What's the payoff if I do this? What's the risk if I don't?" The same could be said for the degree to which anything in your life requires "GTD'ing." But the answers to those questions will vary based on the individual.

Totally agree.

In fact, I think it also applies to some of the other frequent topics on this forum, for example whether integration with reference and email is worthwhile, or whether cross-referencing projects against categories (Next, Waiting etc) is worthwhile, or whether integrating "subsequent" project tasks is worthwhile. We all seem to have quite different desires or "needs" in most such respects, and I believe it basically boils down to whether the effort of creating and maintaining that kind of order and detail is compensated by a substantially higher level of trust, comfort and ease at a later stage when we want the information. Strictly speaking, there is quite little that we truly and absolutely need in order to be able to do what we need to get done, but some of these "luxuries" can still have significant value to some people - and none at all to others. And it is all OK.

 

[Folke]

I often create appointments with myself to make sure that something will be done. And these appointments are my most unmovable calendar items because I am the most important person in my life!

By the same token, I am the most important person in my life. And I live right now. I figure that I typically know much better now what is the best use of my present time than I might have known a few days ago. If "old Folke" would have tried to tie me down in advance with an "appointment with myself" I might have excused him, but almost certainly with a sneer. Unless "he" had managed to convey the significance of the appointment I would simply ignore it. (And besides, "old Folke" is dead; he cannot punish me or give me a bad reputation for standing him up.) And if "old Folke" had in fact managed to convey the significance of the task properly to me (he often manages to do that somehow; often quite convincing "guidance" being handed down to me ;-)), I would still decide on an appropriate time of my own choice, and just take "his" specified date/time as a heuristic suggestion. I cannot recall ever having made an appointment with myself for anything - except for brief experimentation in the wild '80; I certainly did not like it; it made me almost want to throw up mentally.

 

[TesTeq]

By the same token, I am the most important person in my life. And I live right now. I figure that I typically know much better now what is the best use of my present time than I might have known a few days ago. If "old Folke" would have tried to tie me down in advance with an "appointment with myself" I might have excused him, but almost certainly with a sneer. Unless "he" had managed to convey the significance of the appointment I would simply ignore it. (And besides, "old Folke" is dead; he cannot punish me or give me a bad reputation for standing him up.) And if "old Folke" had in fact managed to convey the significance of the task properly to me (he often manages to do that somehow; often quite convincing "guidance" being handed down to me ;-)), I would still decide on an appropriate time of my own choice, and just take "his" specified date/time as a heuristic suggestion. I cannot recall ever having made an appointment with myself for anything - except for brief experimentation in the wild '80; I certainly did not like it; it made me almost want to throw up mentally.

That's a reasonable approach. And I am not brave enough to stand up to the Folke Army (Old Folke, Present Folke, Future Folke, General Folke...)