A project or a short term goal

Greyone

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Having just clarified my purpose & principles, i have also been thinking on my vision and goals. One of my projects , "mum in elder care" has been working well for some time now. But i am wondering whether it should be a long term vision.

What i currently think of as my "mum in elder care" project, breaks down into what i currently think of as tasks ( including dealing with her home, finances, choice of care home, on-going support, adaptive aids etc can be split up further. Which makes me wonder the following. Should my current project "mum in elder care" be on Horizon 4 because i can see it taking longer than 3 years to complete and then what i currently think of as tasks should really be projects because they can easily be sub-divided, as indeed "choice of care home was".

I would really welcome any guidance from the community on whether my project should be on a different horizon and my current tasks should each be projects ?

Thx in advance
 

Folke

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I think you should think if it in whatever way matches your view on how and when you yourself want to look at this. It also depends on what kind of physical means (paper, apps etc) you have chosen to use. What I see is two main avenues (and of course there are combinations and variations):

1) If you are using a system with separate lists (paper, simple apps), all you have in concrete terms is these lists, and you review each one more or less often. You have lists of actions, lists of projects, lists of areas of responsibility (aka areas of focus), lists of goals, lists of visions etc. If the is the approach you have taken then your question really boils down to "Which of these lists" should I put this thing on?" and "Does it matter which one?". You will probably review some of the lists more often than others - so how often do you want to review it? Another consequence of putting things on the same list is that the combinations of items on the list may either confound your overview or enhance it - so in what "context" (in the general sense) do you want to review this? It becomes a matter of making it possible for you to conduct insightful and creative reviews.

2) If you are using a system with hierarchical capabilities (such as an unlimited-level outliner app or a multi-level power app) you will have noticed that some - but not all - of the above things lend themselves extremely well for hierarchical representation, whereas others do not. For example, you may have actions that fit into a project that fits into an AoR that fits into a group of AoRs or a medium-to long term goal. Then by using that in a tidy way you can build reviewability and constant awareness into the very fabric of the hierarchy - and you can review the higher-level items separately if you like. But other kinds of high-level goals (and even some types of areas of focus, depending on how you define them) are "all-pervasive". They do not fit into a hierarchy because they can affect more or less anything across the whole hierarchy. Those all-pervasive goals you need to continue using separate checklists for (or, conceivably, tags of some sort), but let us leave those out of the discussion for now. If you have taken a predominantly hierarchical approach, then your question boils down to something similar as in the first case "On what level should I place this item?". This time frequency of review is not an equally important deciding factor, since you see these higher levels all the time and during all your normal weekly reviews. You probably even do these reviews one such block at a time. But just as when you look at a higher-level checklist (in the previous case), you still need to decide what things you want to see together on the same hierarchical level (e.g. when you look at a list of collapsed trees)? Does the item fit in with the other things at this level? Do you want to look at these things together? Do they all provide a good overview or are they ill-matching, confusing?

I myself am using a hierarchical approach. For smaller projects I use "tasks with subtasks" in order to keep my project list tidy. At the project level I keep the more significant projects (all marked by AoR) and also some "projects" that are in fact permanent AoR containers for single actions. I have ten areas of responsibility, all of which are "hierarchically" defined (i.e. nothing can belong to two AoRs). This gives me a stable, graspable view at that level. One level higher up I have reduced this into just a handful of containers, three of which represent "groups of areas of responsibility" (business, non-profit, private - all on-going stuff) and some of which are major long-term concrete new goals (completable "super-projects" that I will check off one day after several years or so). For my "all-pervasive" type goals (e.g. being happy etc) I do not have a formalized approach (just some checklists and notes for some aspects, but that's about it.)

If I were in your shoes I would treat "Mum" as an Area of Responsibility, under which I would put various projects and tasks. (That's what I did while my parents were still alive.)
 

Greyone

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Hi

I'm currently using a paper based system. Where there are many details i type them up on my computer, update them when i do my review and keep all of my paperwork in a A5 folder so its not too cumbersome. I have a section for each horizon and others to keep associated bits of paper with them. i have chosen to do it this was because although i have been working in IT for over 20 years and am PC experienced, i don't want my GTD system to be computer dependant. So as part of my review i update my computer lists as/when required and print them off.

My Horizon 2 (Areas of focus and accountables), come from my work/life balance analysis and are Career, Finance, Self, Relationships, Health and Family. So all of my projects relating to my mum, including my project "Mum in Elder Care" is under Family (with others). 7 of the tasks on this project are Attendance Allowance (8 steps & complete) , Pension Credit (undefined & cancelled) , Court Of Protection (11 steps & ongoing), Care At Home (7 steps & complete), Podiatry (10 steps * complete) , Day Centre (7 steps 7 cancelled) etc. [ i have used the word steps so as not to add confusion by calling them tasks at this stage]. So according to what DA says each of these 6 things would be a project as there are multiple steps and although i currently call "Mum in Care" a project, after the most significant activity, to reduce confusion i would call it "mums old age needs".

Based on my understanding of what you've said, it may still be ok for me to continue as i am since i have no real conflicts, but i think i will try out my new plan and see how it goes.

Thanks for your excellent advice.
 

Gardener

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It sounds like your terminology is one level away from mine. What you call a "step" is what I would call a task. What you call a task is what I would call a project. So in my system, "Mum in Elder Care" would be a goal, not a project.

I sometimes think that GTD could benefit from a standard term for a goal that "feels" like a project in that it's a relatively simple goal to state, but "acts" like something else. An obvious phrase is "project group" but I find myself wanting some other term.

I was just reading about Agile programming and user stories. A user story, once it's neatened up ready to be worked, is a description of a fairly bite-sized goal. ("As an on-campus student, I want cellphone access to the cafeteria menu, so that I can decide whether to eat on campus.") But when a story is first conceptualized, it may be a large thing that needs to be divided up. ("As the cafeteria manager, I want a system that will manage my food inventory and menu planning, so that I can minimize costs.") These oversized stories that are likely to spawn many other stories may be called "epics." Groups of stories that are related to the same goal or similar goals may be called "themes".

"Epic" ties to the "story" metaphor, and probably wouldn't work for GTD since GTD doesn't use that metaphor. I rather like "theme", though. I now see you as having a "theme" of "Mum in Elder Care", which contains the six things that I call projects and you call tasks. I think that I'm actually mis-using the word if I consider myself inspired by what it means in Agile, but, hey, it's a dictionary word.

I'm thinking, too, that this may tie to the Area of Focus discussion.
 

TesTeq

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Greyone said:
What i currently think of as my "mum in elder care" project, breaks down into what i currently think of as tasks ( including dealing with her home, finances, choice of care home, on-going support, adaptive aids etc can be split up further. Which makes me wonder the following. Should my current project "mum in elder care" be on Horizon 4 because i can see it taking longer than 3 years to complete and then what i currently think of as tasks should really be projects because they can easily be sub-divided, as indeed "choice of care home was".

"Mum maintenance" would be an Area of Focus in my system with ongoing tasks: "dealing with her home", "finances", "on-going support".

"Mum in elder care" would be a Project (active or Someday/Maybe) with one Next Action: "choice of care home".

Mixing maintenance tasks ("dealing with her home", "finances", "on-going support") with Project Next Actions ("choice of care home") on one list would not work for me.
 

Greyone

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Firstly thanks to Gardener and TesTeq.

I have just spent 10 minutes typing a reply, then surfing and checking my kindle copy of GTD and i seem to conclude that an action is the smallest thing you can do and a task is something is something you "Do" , but i have not yet found out what a project is made of, must it be a list of actions (that cannot be broken down) ? or can a project be made up of tasks ?
 

Folke

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In GTD, the terms are action and project. A project is something that will have more than one action (i.e. more than one "step" - a "step" would be called action in GTD).

Task is just a loose term some of us use for any of these, or for anything else you think you need to do, without yet bothering to classify it as per GTD to the correct horizon.

As per David Allen, as soon as something will consist of more than one action it is called a project. For example "Post the letter" is an action, whereas "Post the letter (grab the letter, put on shoes, walk down the street, insert letter)" is a project (with distinct actions). To many GTD followers, this distinction is highly clarifying, whereas to others it is not. David also ties the action-vs-project distinction to another very important distinction, namely the one between what you need to do vs what the desired outcome is. Although in reality both aspects can be placed on anything on any horizon, David simplifies it to apply to projects and actions in such a way that a project IS an outcome whereas an action IS something that you do. Again, this distinction seems to have been extremely clarifying to some, and not so for others. In the above example, you should perhaps avoid calling a project "Post the letter", because that sounds like something you will DO. Instead, you might consider project names such as "Person X is aware of our pricing" etc which describes the desired outcome rather than what you need to do. Or instead of a project called "Paint the living room green" you could have "My living room has green walls". (The distinction between outcome and task is very common in all kinds of management and planning. Thinking in terms of outcome opens your awareness of alternative approaches, thinking outside the box. For example you may not need to post the letter, you could send an owl or an email. Or maybe not paint the living room; you could put up green drapes.)

Regardless of opinion, in paper GTD you would have one list of projects and another list (set of lists) for actions (one per context). In a GTD power app you would normally arrange the actions hierarchically, with the actions sitting "under" their respective project (and context would be an independent "label"). Some power apps offer multiple hierarchical levels, which allows you to treat smaller projects as subprojects etc sitting under a main project, but this is beyond the scope of the GTD teachings (although not necessarily against its spirit).
 

Oogiem

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I'd have the goal be something like Mum enjoying life in supportive elder care as a goal. It's sort of part of the AOF of "I maintain good close ties with the family members I care about" A project might be "Mum settled with appropriate adaptive aids for her current health situation" and actions of "Research options for adaptive aids for Mum". If during the research I discovered that there might be several things that are needed I'd probably split them all into separate projects. New handrails in mum's bathroom, Proper sized cane for mum, Set up regular physical therapy sessions for mum and so on and there would be a number of actions within each of those projects.

I don't like subprojects and I use a very strict definition of project in that if it's more than a single step it's a project. Even simple things might be projects if I need to document the steps for future use.
 

Greyone

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Thanks very much both of you guys. I'll be more careful about how i use the word task in future. I totally concur with your definition of an action and a project and have no problems with that. For me writing down all the actions in what i am doing is very therapeutic and clarifying.

So i'll use "Mum enjoying life in supportive elder care" for the moment as my short term goal with some of what i called tasks before as projects because like Move mum into care home, court of protection etc have multiple steps and qualify as projects.

By reading what you have both said several times , i've just realised that i had more than one short term goal. I could call it "Help mum live independently at home" and some of what i will now call projects will be under this rather than "Mum enjoying life in supportive elder care" .

So thank you both very much for helping me round several courses.

I plan to post again after i have review what i used to call my project over the weekend.

Thanks both and all.
 

bcmyers2112

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My father is ill and I am the child in closest proximity so I am dealing with the same thing as you, Greyone. The other forum members have already done a good job of addressing your question so I'll just add one thing. As a rule of thumb if something has a defined end-point I usually consider it a project, whereas I usually list open-ended things that are important to me in one of the higher-level horizons. At one time I had a project called "Help Dad deal with illness" but I realized it wasn't helping me define outcomes and actions because this will be something I'll have to grapple with for as long as he is alive.

I handle my AORs/AOFs in a manner less sophisticated than Folke does; I put them in flat lists. I review them as frequently as I feel I need to (usually every few months but more frequently if I feel like things are getting out of control). For example I have a "family" AOR that is a note with a list of family members including my Dad. Reviewing that list every once in a while helps me stay on top of things.

There is no right or wrong way to do it, though. Like Folke said it's all about putting it where you can see it as often as you need. That way you can trust your system and keep your tasks off your mind.
 

Greyone

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Thanks bcmyers2112 . What you say about you Help dad project does seem much like my mum project. So this weekend i reviewed the spreadsheet i have all my activities in and created two short term goals. My first is called "Help support mum at home" in this goal i have defined all of what i now see as projects such as attendance allowance, adaptive aids, carers at home etc. I have now completed or cancelled all of those project because my mum is now thankfully in a home so i have my "support mum in case home" short term goal which may in time become a long term goal. Which now has projects such as choice of care home, court of protection, financial assessment 2 & 3 etc., most are still on-going. I'm much happy with this set-up because I've been fretting over my short and long term goals. I've decided though to keep my next job hunt as a project , but try to align it with a goal or vision. My Moving house will still be a project but i'll be mindful of my future plans.

Thanks you for such a personal and helpfull reply.
 
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