Newbie Q: Which list manager: Evernote, MindManager or something else?

Ship69

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Hi

I am a GTD newbie. I need some a list good manager software to work with:
- My main PC - Windows7(x64) and
- My laptop - Windows8
- Microsoft Outlook 2010 (Office Pro)
- Android (Galaxy Note 3)

I have experimented with Mindjet MindManager 2012 which I already own. It is fun because it extremely visual, allows high speed data capture of lists and has some great hotkeys. However doesn't seem very easy to filter lists... ??

I am wondering about using Evernote. There is a free version with a big following but I am just a sole trader without much spare money and I am worried that I will find I need to buy the "Premium version" as £35/year is right at the very top of what I would be prepared to spend... (I hugely object to the subscription model, but what can you do!) Let alone G*d spare us, the "Business" version for £8/month (£96/year)... In practice would I need to upgrade or will the Free version be good enough?

BACKGROUND
I work as a freelance Internet consultant, specializing in SMEs.

Before you suggest these:
- I hate MS Word with a passion (I think is one of the least intuitive applications ever written) so I am keen to avoid that.
- I also hate Google (who are taking over the entire planet whilst we sleep walk into their arms)

Any suggestions?
Many thanks

J
 

JZajac

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I use Outlook Tasks with customized categories for my list manager. I can print this, export it to other products, and because Outlook is my primary email, it works great for me. I haven't tried any of the products you mentioned, but you might look into OneNote - I hear that it works beautifully with your other devices.
 

Ship69

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Oh-oh, this guy is saying that both Evernote and OneNote are less good than dedicated GTD software - e.g. GTDnext and a commenter firmly recommends Toodledo... :^(

Meanwhile although I WANT to like Evernote (partly because I rather like the look of TheSecretWeapon.org site which explains things extremely well, IMHO) I have discovered that the free version of Evernote is somewhat crippled in terms of bandwidth, but this fact is somewhat hidden on Evernote.com which is a level of disingenuous that I find disturbing. It's pretty hard to find out but it turns out that you can only upload 60GB per month and every time you tweak anything it must be uploaded in its entirety (this may or may not be a problem in practice I have no idea yet!)
 

PeterW

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My view is that a dedicated list manager will generally be a better option than a note manager like OneNote or EverNote. The benefit of those note-taking apps is that you can store all of your additional notes and files related to the task. The downside is that they rarely provide the management, scheduling and reminder options that you might need.

I'd recommend looking for an app that works well on your mobile device and can sync to the cloud. You can then access the information from your desktop or laptop through a companion app (if one exists) or from a web browser.
 

Ship69

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I've just been having a quick look at GTDNext. What is nice is that it "comes out of the box" ready for GTD. In fact I couldn't find very much wrong with it... a few minor problems including:
- The fact that dragging and dropping Projects/Tasks seems pretty clunky (often refusing to go where put!)
- Notes on an Action seem to be forced into plain text (bizarre!)
Sadly it seems to only be a web interface, which will ultimately be quite irritating both on my PCs (Windows7/ 8 ) and mobile (Android).

I am a total newbie to this GTD universe, but I fear that interfacing with other systems will be a key problem in practice. In particular getting it to interface with emails??

PeterW what do you make of GTDNext? And what tools/applications do you use for GTD?

EDIT: There is a serious problem with GTDNext - no mobile (Andriod in mycase) app :^((
 

SiobhanBR

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I'm going to suggest you start with paper. You can search the forums here and find a lot of discussion about the benefits of paper but for me, the biggest benefit is that you really learn the concepts of GTD.

Then, once you really understand how GTD works for you, in your real life, you will be in a much better place to choose an app. Particularly if you are going to pay for one.

Currently, I use Outlook Tasks at work and Evernote for personal. I have a work issue Blackberry that syncs my tasks, email and calendar. I can also access my personal email and calendar and Evernote. I use Evernote almost exclusively on my iPad mini, but it syncs to my PC laptop and an Android tablet (that I can use when my 4 year old has the iPad!). I love that I can email directly to Evernote and it shows up in my Evernote inbox for processing.

I love Evernote and am using the free version. I do not set it up like The Secret Weapon as I found that focussed too much on priority etc. I also do not rely on my list tool for reminders or any time based or priority based techniques. That is what the weekly review is for! My list tool is for keeping my lists by context. Both Outlook and Evernote do this wonderfully. Reminders, where needed, are in calendar, where they belong as time-based events.

If you are interested, my Evernote setup is like this:

Notebook Stack
- Notebook

GTD
-GTD
-GTD: @agendas
-GTD: @creative
-GTD: @errands
-GTD: @home
-GTD: @personal-anywhere
-GTD: @read/review
-GTD: @waiting-for
-GTD: Completed
-GTD: Projects
GTD: S/M
-S/M: Books to read
-S/M: Music and movies to get
-S/M: Someday-Maybe
-S/M: Things to buy for gifts
-S/M: Things to buy for house
-S/M: Things to buy for me
Reference
Inbox
 

Oogiem

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I second Siobhan's suggestion to start with paper. even if you only stay on paper for a short while it's really helpful to learn the process before you get wound up in the intricacies of dealing with computer stuff. My suggestion, a pad of small maybe 3 x 5 paper for your mind sweep and daily capture and a notebook with removable pages into which you can place a page for each context for your next actions and one page for a list of current projects. SOme folks like Circa notebooks but when I started I used plain 3 ring binder paper. I liked the larger 8.5 x 11 size but any size you want will work. Make your first project "GTD system set up and running smoothly" and go from there.

I'd also suggest looking at the various set-up guides on GTD connect for paper, Evernote etc. They really help you get started in the right direction.

I'd also strongly suggest you think VERY CAREFULLY before going with any cloud based system. Think about what would happen if you entire GTD system and lists were spread across the front page of the NY Times. Do you keep any personal or private information in there? Do you have any privacy requirements for work tasks? Nothing in the cloud is safe from hacking and disclosure so be forwarned.
 

Ship69

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I have several problems with paper:

A) DELETIONS
When you tick off and delete stuff your list becomes messy and harder to read. And then you end up copying, stuff over from list to list to list. Nightmare.

B) PRIORITY
The informal system I have at present is a mindmapping tool called MindManager from Mindjet. I have projects listed in rough priority order. When you delete something (because it is done) the gap in the list is filled instantly. When priority increases you can either drag it further up the list or in fact there are great hotkeys (e.g. Cntrl/Alt/up-arrow and Cntrl/Alt/down-arrow) to move it up and down the list. IE priorities are mostly set relative to each other. (I can also flag extremely urgent things in colour or with little icons etc.) I also use simple keyboard shortcuts like Control/B to bold up text to show when I have processed

C) ERRORS/CORRECTIONS
If I write something in the wrong place or want to move it, if I'm using paper this quickly becomes messy. (Yes I do use Typex but it's slow and messy!)

In my experience the use of rigid prioritization in any system quickly get messy (and so I tend not to use the MindManager priority tags) but nonetheless I do think there is a place for limited use of urgency tagging. Otherwise things easily slip through the net on the day in question.

The original GTD book was written in 2002 but I have a deeper problem which is that with modern technology, Context becomes increasingly irrelevant because
a) Most things can get done in front of a computer
b) And if you have your mobile phone with you that can happen pretty much anywhere.
So apart from physical tasks, most projects can be done from almost anywhere. This makes Context seem rather laboured...

Perhaps you can help me with this: I know that David Allen is keen that we do not overtly/mechanically prioritize our lists BUT I now have a list of Projects that is about 100+ long and a similar number of Next Actions. Am I really expected to read all 100 actions several times a day?

I am moderately dyslexic and reading these entire list several times a day, just to pick out the high priority ones is seriously painful for me. ("Like sticking pins in my eyes!") Personally I am highly visual - I think in shapes and colours. With the Next Actions being grouped into Context lists, the job is slightly easier but I still end up with the reading and re-reading of low priority tasks getting in the way of finding (and then executing) the higher priority tasks!

Oogiem - yes, I take your point about the Cloud not being remotely secure. My main way of fighting Orwell's Big Brother is to not use the biggest privacy violators (notably Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon) unless I have to. But I'm afraid that this is a battle we have all lost a long time ago so my resistance is only token. Frankly I have more important/urgent things to worry about, for the most part - such as earning a decent living!

EDIT: Btw, I am now rather 'in love' with the way GTDNext works - i.e.
- The way it automatically creates the Next Action from a project
- Lets you FORCE a Next Action if you want to
- And having an extra tick-field at the list of projects and actions called "Focus", which is nicely flagged up in red (and filterable) seems particularly helpful.

The main problem with GTDNext, however is that it is Web Only and doesn't even have a Windows let alone a mobile app. So the moment you are off-line, you lose all your lists. Nightmare.
 

Folke

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Ship69 said:
I still end up with the reading and re-reading of low priority tasks getting in the way of finding (and then executing) the higher priority tasks!

I use Doit.im. It has a nice, subtle Priority indicator in color. I use it as a "review attention" indicator. It helps me find (or ignore) tasks.

Ship69 said:
I am now rather 'in love' with the way GTDNext works - i.e.
- The way it automatically creates the Next Action from a project
- Lets you FORCE a Next Action if you want to
- And having an extra tick-field at the list of projects and actions called "Focus", which is nicely flagged up in red (and filterable) seems particularly helpful.

Zendone has all of that, too. And Nirvana and MyLifeOrganized (and I assume Omnifocus) have most of it.

Ship69 said:
Context becomes increasingly irrelevant because
a) Most things can get done in front of a computer
b) And if you have your mobile phone with you that can happen pretty much anywhere.
So apart from physical tasks, most projects can be done from almost anywhere. This makes Context seem rather laboured

The sample contexts from the book may not apply to you, but the idea as such that your ability to carry out a task depends on various situational factors will probably always remain. For example, some tasks may require a certain @Person. Some tasks may require you to be @Out. Some may require you to be in a @Reflective mood. Some may require you to be at a @Base location (office, home etc, where you keep your physical stuff). And some may be @Anywhere (perhaps with your phone, tablet or any normal computer). Those five happen to be the contexts I have defined for my life. They suit me, but may not suit you. You need to analyze what the limiting factors are in your life. You may also want to add energy tags and duration tags etc.
 

Oogiem

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Ship69 said:
A) DELETIONS

Why recopy? Just put 1 page for each context and line through tasks as they are done. When you need toadd a new page do so. Once all tasks are crossed off toss the paper. Simple.

Ship69 said:
B) PRIORITY
Ignore priority. The reason for contexts is that you can adjust as you see each context. Priority is far too fluid to be useful.

Ship69 said:
C) ERRORS/CORRECTIONS
Treat it like a finished task. Line through the item and write it in the correct place.

Ship69 said:
I do think there is a place for limited use of urgency tagging. Otherwise things easily slip through the net on the day in question.
If it must be done by or on a specific date thne it really ought to be in your calendar. Urgency tagging seems to always fail in my experience. However, when you first get started it can be really hard to wean yourself off of it. Jump in and try it though, it really does work better w/o all those priorities and urgency flags.

Ship69 said:
I have a deeper problem which is that with modern technology, Context becomes increasingly irrelevant because
a) Most things can get done in front of a computer
b) And if you have your mobile phone with you that can happen pretty much anywhere.
So apart from physical tasks, most projects can be done from almost anywhere. This makes Context seem rather laboured...

This is disagree with most strongly. The more you can do things everywhere the MORE important context becomes. I live and work in the same place. I always have my iPhone with me. I can choose to go into nearly any context at any time. SO that makes it even more important to focus on a single context. You are underestimating the mental energy and time required to switch gears to move in and out of contexts. Now they do change with technology changes but they are still of high value. My computer contexts are separated by application, so I have things to do in LibreOffice, things to do in Quicken, things to do when I have an Internet connection (whichin rural America is not all the time), things for Photoshop and Lightroom and so on.

Ship69 said:
I now have a list of Projects that is about 100+ long and a similar number of Next Actions. Am I really expected to read all 100 actions several times a day?

Are you really in every possible context every day?

My current lists consist of 234 active working projects and over 300 available actions. I rarely read every context list each day. Instead I work on different contexts, usually as weather and assistance allows.

If you have too many tasks then see if you can reduce the number of projects you are working on, put some in someday/maybe for a while.

For me my limit is one page or screen full. If I get too many than that in a context I knwo I either need to buck up and work that context down, or reduce my projects until I am comfortable with the volume.
 

bcmyers2112

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You're not going to find any consensus about which list manager is best. Instead I'd suggest you simply find something readily at hand that has the very few features a good GTD list manager should have:
- Some way to sort lists by context.
- Some way to keep waiting for, projects, and someday maybe lists.
- Something that can be easily made portable by printing or syncing (or in the case of paper one that's inherently portable)
- Something that allows you to set due dates but doesn't force them (which is a nice to have but not a requirement as you can put due dates in a calendar)
- Something that is easy enough to use that you won't have to think about it (I think this is the most important one -- I can tell you from hard-knock experience that if you have to think about it too much you'll stop using it regularly and your GTD practice will fall off the rails in short order)

To start I would recommend choosing something with which you're already familiar. Outlook can work just fine. And of course you already know how to use paper.

As for your other criteria I won't rehash what's already been said but will merely add that I think you're holding onto some non-GTD crutches. If you follow the suggestions outlined in DA's book and get things out of your head and into a trusted and logical system your life gets much easier -- and you won't need (or even want) priority codes/sorting.

As for contexts, I still find them useful. Yes, my iPhone is always with me but there are times and places where it is inappropriate to make phone calls, send texts and emails, etc. There are times when I can't get a signal. Things I can only do at the office, or at home, or out on errands. Things I can only do on my computer because I need to use a program which has no smartphone app, or because I need a document I can't access on my phone. You get the point.

As DA himself says in GTD everything he suggests is easy to do and something you already know how to do. He's just suggesting you do these things more consistently than most people do them. Any list manager that meets the basic criteria above can and will work. Just pick a list manager that doesn't get in your way. Your real work is doing what's on the lists, after all.

In my experience, feature-packed list managers are best avoided unless they can be "intelligently dumbed down" (another phrase coined by DA) so that the extra features don't get in your way. The point of GTD is to instill simple habits that do not add unneeded complexity. Life is hard enough! GTD is there to make life easier.

On a technical note I do use Evernote for my list manager and if you're only inputting text I don't think the 60MB upload limit will be a problem.

Good luck with your GTD practice.
 

Ship69

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Thanks for your comments. This is just me "coming up for air" having spend a few hours looking at various options. The bad news is that I hate them - I hate them all with a passion. I would hope to have made a decision by now and this is a depressing state of affairs.

I'm not sure what to say....

To save time I thought I would try something designed as with GTD in mind rather than something that has to be customized rather painfully. After reading around online, I tried DoIt.im and soon found myself calling its interface "hateful" - 4 million users be damned! Nozbe was prettier but still extremely clunky - e.g. change an action into a project or into a different project took several clicks.
MyLifeOrganised is pretty damned expensive but it looks quite powerful and at least sub-subtask are allowed unlike with most of these things. But's all so fiddly with too many options and too much of a large learning curve as a rest. They need to re-do their usability trials. This sort of complexity may suit early adopters but mainstream consumers will run a mile.
GTDNext was in many ways great and I loved the way with a simple hit of the Tab key an action becomes a sub-action or sub-sub-action (to as many levels as you like) and shift/tab takes back up a level as afar as you like back into a project if you chose. All with no fuss. No fiddling with stupid property dialog boxes. And yes you can drag an action straight into another project - again no fuss. A bit annoying that the right-click menus seem to do nothing and keyboard shortcuts are v limited. And annoying you cant drag and drop an action by anywhere on the line rather then just by the right hand end (where the cross appears)... BUT the real deal-breaker is that sadly GTDNext is a web app only and so I presumably I can't use it on the train. Disaster. [grrr]

Sorry I'm tired, hungry and in a filthy mood now. I have singularly failed to "get anything done" these past few hours. >:^[

Maybe I have been spoiled by MindManager, but there is SO much wrong with everything I tried. On reflection my requirements are:
- For a start multi-level task is a must.
- Secondly it needs to be able to be typed in fast. The mouse should only be used occasionally - bring on the keyboard shortcuts etc. This should be pretty standard by now based on industry norms... (e.g. F2 to edit, Tab to indent, Delete to delete and most things like collapse or expand should toggle or go around a sequence of actions with each click)
- Next actions should be allocated from the list of actions in sequence.
- Colours MUST be not too in-your-face because colour has a strong psychological effect (ask any colour therapist!)
- A smooth tickler list function (come back to life in: )
- The ability to add settings/properties to an action/project as you enter it
- It would be nice if we could change the type of something by dragging e.g. we should be able to change a Task into a Project simply by dragging onto the Projects icon (e.g. in left hand menu), rather than by fiddling about in properties.

Actually looking again at MyLifeOrganised, it turns out that it is fairly configurable and may just about do me. But the interface is about a million times to complicated with far to many menu options. Their programmers need to take a long hard look at WorkFlowy to see what can be done with almost no menu items at all! For me WorkFlowy was sadly not powerful enough - but it made me smile and was surprisingly tempting...

Enough! I need food.
 

TesTeq

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Ship69 said:
To save time I thought I would try something designed as with GTD in mind rather than something that has to be customized rather painfully.

I am saving time by not trying - just using pen and paper and iPhone calendar synchronized with... nothing. ;-)
 

ollie_r

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I'm using Evernote to manage my lists and organizing them via Tags. I have two notebooks (inbox and notes). In case anyone is interested, here's my structure:

I have 2 main tags ".List Manager" and ".Cabinet" that serve as folders. Nothing gets actually tagged with that.

Under .Cabinet I have my A-Z filing system. Under ".List Manager" I have:

.Lists
.Next Actions
.Projects
Journal
Someday/Maybe

I have a tag for each project so all tags under ".Projects" are essentially my Projects List. .Next Actions has sub-tags for each context that I use and .Lists is just a bunch of reference lists that I refer to every now and then.

Sidebar and Shortcuts

Now what I really like about Evernote is that you can customize the sidebar. I have it setup so it only shows: Shortcuts and Tags. When I start my day I review my lists and projects and put everything that I need for the day under Shortcuts. You can add whole tags, if you need to refer to project support materials, whole notebooks, saved searches and single notes (if you want to focus on specific tasks or a specific reference note).

For my calendar and reminder needs I use a dedicated calendar app. I played around with Evernote Reminders but I didn't like them at all.
 

Oogiem

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Ship69 said:
This is just me "coming up for air" having spend a few hours looking at various options. The bad news is that I hate them - I hate them all with a passion. I would hope to have made a decision by now and this is a depressing state of affairs.

I think you are being too hard on yourself and on your needs. Expecting to have the perfect list manager after only a few hours study without testing it over the course of a month or more in your life is unrealistic.

FWIW I started GTD on Paper, that lasted about 2 weeks or so as I also hate the paper issues you talked about but they are a way to get a handle on the system that is really helpful. Tried and rejected Omnifocus due to the steep learning curve. So I decided to implement LifeBalance which lasted for about 9-10 months or so. Ran into the wall of what I needed it to do and went back to paper for about a week while I re-evaluated options. Flirted briefly with DEVONThink & Evernote but finally bit the bullet and settled on Omnifocus. I've been running with that as my list manager since 2009. I've re-vamped my Omnifocus system several times since my first implementation as I fine tune it for my life as it is at this point.

For me I think I've finally learned that in any given software category I am a whole lot better off picking the best in breed, full featured, requires significant investment to really use, package and just planning a project to learn it well than I am starting with the simple version. Invariably I end up needing to convert to the more expansive system eventually. I'm Mac based so I can't tell you what the best in breed is for a Windows system but I can tell you that you aren't going to get a perfect implementation of GTD on your first or on your 10th try. You will constantly be updating it to handle your changing life and needs. Don't get caught in the trap of changing the system for no reason but also don't be afraid that what you pick now will be it forever.
 

Folke

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I agree with Oogiem. Be realistic. It is fun to dream about the perfect app; in fact it is one of my hobbies, but no app seems to ever get close. For obvious reasons, they all spend most of their time accommodating other people's wishes, and their own, but not specifically mine. And most of them are small companies struggling just to reinvent the wheel - have you noticed how similar many of them are? Similar features. Similar shortcomings.

I have tested dozens of apps, and I have used paper, Outlook, Gubb, Todoist, RememberTheMilk, Toodledo, Nirvana and Doit, in that order. I have never been entirely happy, I have always had countless minor gripes and a few major ones, but every change has been for the better (in my own subjective opinion) and I feel confident that virtually any app will let me do my job.

The thing that you - or at least I - will seem to have to live with is the fact that whichever app you choose to use there will be a few silly things that will annoy you and force you to invent workarounds and work much more with you system than you would need to if you had the "ideal" app.
 

Ship69

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I found this rather interesting article about Evernote vs OneNote vs GTDNext.
http://blog.gtdnext.com/evernote-vs-onenote-vs-gtd-software/

His main points are:
1. Adding a new Action and assign context etc in Evernote or OneNote takes much longer than GTD-designed systems such as GTDNext. This is partly because GTDNext automatically allocates to the project you had already selected - something not possible with EverNote

2. The NEXT actions are not flagged up automatically by such "Note" systems and as a result if you show multiple Actions on screen for multiple projects, this quickly becomes somewhat overwhelming. The only other solution being to manually declare which tasks are "Next" - and this is time-consuming.
 

marcia

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I like the simplicity, flexibility, and security of plain text files. They are not in a proprietary format or subject to a database corruption. They are device-independent and accessible from a large number of apps as well as system tools. They are easy to share, archive, and update. They are small and sync quickly through Dropbox. Dropbox has a fine versioning system and I can have access to my GTD files from any computer connected to the Internet.
 

Folke

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Yeah, well, although I agree with much of what he says, I can understand those people who prefer a "Note" app or even paper. Most of what he says, and which I agree with applies not only to GTDNext but to virtually all "heavier" todo apps such as Things, Omnifocus, MyLifeOrganized, Nirvana, Doit, Zendone, FacileThings, Getidoneapp, Toodledo, Todoist ... and to GTDNext, too, of course.

One of the main characteristics that I find important in all these "heavier" apps is the ability to very simply (with very little overhead) classify tasks multi-dimensionally - by Project, by Area/Goal, by Context and by GTD List type (Next, Waiting, Someday, Tickler/Calendar), in other words to have the option to view tasks by either of these dimensions depending on what you want to look at. But many people do not care for that - even DA himself says it is unnecessary for most people. But I definitely like it. And many apps have it. And it usually takes no extra time to use it.

Another feature that I like, that some but not all apps have, is the ability to prevent future, dependent tasks from cluttering your "active" GTD lists (Next, Waiting etc). Again, this is something that many people on this forum do not care much for, but which apparently both you and I like. The alternative is to keep them outside of your app, in the so-called "project support material".

Some people really love Evernote etc and really love full-blown integration between it and the list app. (Look at Zendone if you like this). I personally do not need it at all.

Some people really love performance assessment (pomodoro timers, checkoff statistics etc) and want it built in. I personally do not need this at all.
 

Ship69

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Here is an update as to where I've got to:
For me multi-level heirachies is a must. However VERY few GTD/Note taking systems have them. I also want to freely change an item between projects and tasks, because that is how our brains work. The only relevant apps doing this that I could find were:
- Workflowy (but not task oriented enough)
- Omnifocus (but Mac only)
- DoIt.im (but horrible ugly/clunky interface)
- MyLifeOrganized (powerful but rather ugly interface, and far too many clicks)
- GTDNext (Web only)
- ToDoIst
However Todoist (much like Evernote) fails to automatically give you a Next Action. This makes it frankly GTD bankrupt in my opinion - i.e. yes you would be much better using paper.

SO... my current thinking is back to GTDNext. It is very fast to enter data, you can change levels just by hitting Tab or Shift/Tab. And you can allocate Actions into projects just by dragging them there... All fairly intuitive with very few clicks. There are various minor problems with it but it seems to be developing at break-neck speed and they seem incredibly responsive to and interested in customer feedback. The lack of off-line capability is a serious problem as it means working when travelling is a problem, and worse there doesn't appear to be any decent way of exporting/print the data. The latter is a mighty pain as I do a lot of reflective thinking including prioritizing when on the road.

End the winner is:
GTDNext

P.S. Failing the I'll go back to either paper or Mindjet MindManager, which I now realize incredibly good at GTD compared to all the other Task Managers that I've seen!
 
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