The advantages of having two systems

diogo431107

diogo431107

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I can't have my personal projects show up at work. I simply can't afford it. I'd rather die than have my colleagues know what projects I am engaged in my personal life. I work in a very competitive field, IT, and to summarize, it's complicated. One system, although it would give a much needed clarity of mind and easier to maintain, no, no thanks.

I was wondering how it really works for those who manage to juggle two systems, as it's not recommended in the book, and it seems to me that it adds to the workload of people like me who are already super stressed and it begins to falter over time, or the personal system is neglected or not managed properly.

To add up, when I started to process I do noticed that some projects do overlap and would be beneficial both at home and at work, so... even though I would have a clearly defined separation work-personal, some projects do not respect this dynamic and they might as well be considered both personal and professional. I have a handful of those.

I consider, I might be overthinking, or I built walls around me and cornered myself, but I got myself stuck and I see no way out of me implementing GTD in my life this way.



 
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gtdstudente

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diogo431107 said:
I can't have my personal projects show up at work. I simply can't afford it. I'd rather die than have my colleagues know what projects I am engaged in my personal life. I work in a very competitive field, IT, and to summarize, it's complicated. One system, although it would give a much needed clarity of mind and easier to maintain, no, no thanks.

I was wondering how it really works for those who manage to juggle two systems, as it's not recommended in the book, and it seems to me that it adds to the workload of people like me who are already super stressed and it begins to falter over time, or the personal system is neglected or not managed properly.

To add up, when I started to process I do noticed that some projects do overlap and would be beneficial both at home and at work, so... even though I would have a clearly defined separation work-personal, some projects do not respect this dynamic and they might as well be considered both personal and professional. I have a handful of those.

I consider, I might be overthinking, or I built walls around me and cornered myself, but I got myself stuck and I see no way out of me implementing GTD in my life this way.



Click to expand...
If Professional is uncomfortable in a Digital system. . . .

Then Paper system could be very comfortable system for a Personal GTD system to govern one's life and to 'take back the power' from any potential juvenile misfits as an impenetrable bonus?

Everyone has a right to inner peace even when it has to be earned?
 
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René Lie

René Lie

Certified GTD Trainer
I tend to separate personal and professional inside the same tool (Asana). I have two projects lists; one for work and one for personal. Also, my @Office list contains all my work related tasks divided into separate sections (e.g. Email, SAP, computer, calls), and then all the other context lists in Asana contain my personal tasks.

Could something like this be a solution for you?
 
B

Baz

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I have tried a single system and separate systems on various occasions.

For me it comes down to trade offs. In my case two systems had a benefit in that I could use whatever system I liked for my personal implementation vs work where I have to Microsoft (I use ToDo).

The trade off was that if I wanted to view my personal system I had to have a personal device as my work blocks the installation of software and access to web versions of list managers due to data security.

There were other trade offs but that was the main one.

I now just keep everything in MS ToDo on my work account. That’s not perfect but it has the least trade offs for me.

The Next Action Associates (GTD franchise in the UK) Podcast has an episode about this very topic that you will give you some pointers on running two systems. It’s called “One GTD System Or Two” and is the 33rd episode they’ve released.

Hope that helps.
 
diogo431107

diogo431107

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One solution indeed as @gtdstudente pointed is to have a paper system for the personal GTD. I haven't had considered that... It's worth noting I am using Workflowy, which is an outline tool similar to Dynalist, and the problem arised when I tried to have both systems in Workflowy given that in this tool, switching accounts is not very practical and it has no feature to hide or protect some sections other than use a filter #hashtag which can be easily disabled.

I totally agree, I should expect results in my systems according to the effort I put in maintaining them. If other people ended up neglecting one system in detriment to the other, I shouldn't try to mirror their experiences and focus on building my own.

@René Lie yes, that would be viable, I can create two outlines, one branching to the work projects and the other to the personal projects. The problem is Workflowy has a zoom feature which can make everything visible within a few clicks.

It hasn't occurred to me I could bring another device with me at work, for my personal tasks... I think I will go with this idea, since I would like to have everything sync in my Worfklowy accounts.

Thanks @Baz for your input!

Here is the link @Baz mentioned in case someone is interested. I am familiar with this episode. I researched it before asking.

I really would like a GTD system at work with minimal interference so I could show some parts of it to my boss or to other people, not that it would happen often, I also lock my computer when I leave so probably it wouldn't be so problematic to have one system, the thing my work is hectic and sometimes I leave in a hurry or have to show my screen to other IT technicians through remote access and give them total access to my computer, that's why I don't feel so safe having my personal projects there.

I have two accounts in Worflowy and I shared links from one to another, this gives me a reasonable amount of peace since my personal projects won't show in the search bar. This method limits Workflowy's function but it's worth a try... If this doesn't work, I'll bring a second device to work and problem solved.

If you have had experiences with two systems please share below so others can benefit in the future. I'll keep watching the thread.

Cheers!
 
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Matt_M

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I can deeply empathize. While I don't think there is a wrong answer, per se. I do know that companies own anything and everything on the devices you use, including the data transmitted by them. Most people don't read their company's data and IT policies which go to great lengths to outline these things. Granted, in 99.99% of cases they won't waste their time, energy, and money going after anything in your personal world; it is still not a wise idea to take the chance or have a dispute happen many years later when records are pulled/etc. For security and privacy reasons, I always recommend keeping personal and professional data, systems, etc. separate. There is just less headaches overall.

As to how to do it, well there is basically two approaches that I have done:

  1. Same structure, different data: If possible, use the same application and tools for both systems. This may or may not be possible for a number of reasons, but it is the easiest way to avoid lot of mental overhead with using different tools, settings, filters, etc. Most often you can copy the structure (i.e. settings, filters, etc.) between machines but leave the data alone. I personally use this approach myself.
  2. Use the tools allowed in each: Most often, your personal options are unlimited. However, for most professional organizations, you are going to be extremely restricted (for good reason) on the software you can install, use, etc. You will need to adapt to whatever technology is allowed at your professional work place and make the best possible system given those constraints. Alternatively, you may want to consider a paper based system/planner since that obviously doesn't fall under the limits of the IT infrastructure.

Yeah, I do think that David Allen, when he wrote GTD, didn't understand the general limits of everyone who doesn't own/run their own consulting business in regards to how that limits their options as well as privacy.

Edit:

I didn't really talk about how I maintain both systems since I felt that might be a bit overkill. However, I will cover the highlights. Essentially, I don't touch my work system outside of my standard working hours. In that time frame, I do my reviews, processing, etc. That's all part of doing my job and I don't let that bleed over into my personal world/time. For my personal system, I visit it in the morning to just see what my day looks like, during lunch, and then in the evening to clean-up things. During the weekend, I may spend an hour or so doing some maintenance on it as well but it usually doesn't need the rigor my work system does.

I don't worry if my systems deviate from each other as they will need the structure they need as they organically grow/get used.

In a nutshell, get comfortable spending time maintaining your work system while at work as that is part of your job. It shouldn't a big one but a few hours a week is perfectly fine.

I hope this helps.
 
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diogo431107

diogo431107

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Matt_M said:
Use the tools allowed in each: Most often, your personal options are unlimited. However, for most professional organizations, you are going to be extremely restricted (for good reason) on the software you can install, use, etc. You will need to adapt to whatever technology is allowed at your professional work place and make the best possible system given those constraints. Alternatively, you may want to consider a paper based system/planner since that obviously doesn't fall under the limits of the IT infrastructure.
Click to expand...

About point 2, Matt. I'm responsible for defining the limits of our IT infrastructure, and I received a department in a company that hasn't cared about this in over 40 years. It's very easy to get burned out thinking about it, and the pressure I am having to come up with solutions. I hope to have good news in a few months about my productivity system.
 
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Oogiem

Oogiem

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diogo431107 said:
I was wondering how it really works for those who manage to juggle two systems, as it's not recommended in the book, and it seems to me that it adds to the workload of people like me who are already super stressed and it begins to falter over time, or the personal system is neglected or not managed properly.
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I no longer have to keep work and personal separate. But when I did it was really easy. Work was usually restricted in location, tools allowed, even who I could talk about what I was doing. Think a silo with little to no outside contact. Even my hard drive and all papers had to go into the safe every time I left the room, for any reason. So there was no question about keeping anything work related on a personal system and vice versa. You just have to allow extra time to capture and process. For example if I had a thought about a personal project I could not capture it at work, as I wouldn't be allowed to take the note out of work. So you get good at compartmentalizing your thoughts. I am in this mode now and all else gets ignored. Then later you switch locations/modes and hope that all those thoughts come back. Most of the time they do. Allowing for ample brainstorming time helps a lot in both systems. That will usually resurface the thoughts you've forgotten when you finally switch modes.

Personally I'd double the amount of thinking/get clear time in that situation as you have tothink of and reject any thoughts/tasks/projects etc that you can't even document if you remember/think of them in the wrong context.

Many years ago there was a person on the forums who worked in classified systems. As I recall he used a paper GTD system. One stayed in the SCIF and one was outside for personal and it all worked well. That was before there were decent digital options but I am sure you could do the same now. I believe he also did a quick daily get oriented when he got to workj and one for personal when he got home to keep on track.
 
B

Baz

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Matt_M said:
I do think that David Allen, when he wrote GTD, didn't understand the general limits of everyone who doesn't own/run their own consulting business in regards to how that limits their options as well as privacy.
Click to expand...

I think this is a great point.

I don't recall David being strict about having a single system either but it would be worth expanding on if the book is updated again in the future.

Reading this thread I'm actually tempted to move back to two systems as when I'm on my work computer I can't view my personal calendar (unless I use Outlook web which I don't like), my personal emails or my digital reference and project support.

Also, most of the time I'm not bothered that corporate IT have an insight into my personal life but sometimes I am. I'm also mindful that were I too to be fired on the spot (unlikely but not impossible) or put on gardening leave (because I got a new job elsewhere) then there's a risk that I'm locked out of corporate IT account and can't access my personal GTD system to move it elsewhere.
 
C

cfoley

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I would ask how you can view all this as one system.

Even though your work commitments must be stored on different media from your personal commitments, it still might be one system for your life.

What are the restrictions around bringing paper and personal devices in and out of the workplace? If you can see your personal commitments on a phone, tablet or paper notebook, then you can get a sense of the whole in the workplace and even do your weekly review there.

If you are able to work from home, then you must be able to see your work media at home which would enable you to do a review there.
 
schmeggahead

schmeggahead

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diogo431107 said:
One system, although it would give a much needed clarity of mind and easier to maintain, no, no thanks.
Click to expand...
Lots of good ideas in this thread. One additional: a person's GTD system is by definition a single systematic approach to work and life, essentially a single system. This "system" has requirements like any other. Your GTD system has a requirement to hide personal information while at work. I had the same desire too.

Most people don't have an extreme situation that @Oogiem described where such isolation/separation is so comprehensive. But there still needs to be accommodation of the need to get items discovered when using one compartment that allows them to get to the other compartment to handle them. DAC folders product had "To Office" and "To Home" for such an accommodation. This is what I mean about a single "system" with multiple components servicing the segregation required.

One trick I used was using Outlook, OneNote, etc. at work and used Apple apps at home. The difference in tools helped me switch gears.

Another key was to do the reviews of each compartment of my system as a part of the same review. Lots of items were caught because I had just reviewed the other compartment.

Hope this helps,
Clayton

I didn't mean to bring an umbrella to a brainstorm.
 
René Lie

René Lie

Certified GTD Trainer
Pondering on what Clayton (@schmeggahead ) says, this comes to me:
A carpenter would never have only one tool in his toolbox, because one tool can't be used for all tasks. Likewise, there is no one tool that can make up your whole GTD system. Myself, I use Asana for tasks and projects, and Notion for higher horizons, checklists and all kinds of notes. Email lives in its own ecosystem, and Google Drive takes care of reference.

Following this thought, two separate list managers can make up a whole system. If I had to do this, I would be especially careful about choosing capture tools that I could bring with me anywhere and capture thoughts as they appear (you know, you don't always have your best thoughts about work when you're at work...) without compromising security measures.

And remember: "I must create a system or be enslaved by another mans" (William Blake - I believe it was in "Ready for anything" that David Allen used this quote)
 
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mcogilvie

mcogilvie

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Your point about capture tools is spot on. I would extend that to the ability to transfer things between the two list apps, and also calendar, because inevitably things bleed over even in highly compartmentalized environments: appointments with the dentist, potluck group dinners, etcetera.
 
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mksilk2

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I recently moved to two systems. For the previous 10 years during the time when I started implementing GTD i had the luxury of one system (MS ToDo). It worked well and my work had no issues with combining data and I didn't either. Then I was made redundant and the gap in my GTD system became glaringly obvious, namely I was not in control of the underlying system. After a nice break, I started a new role a couple of months ago and now keep my two systems very separate. One reason is because my new company is very strict on access to various applications, even web based but more importantly to me (and with 20/20 hindsight) I don't want to be at the mercy of an organisation. So I use Nirvana for personal and for work I use the enterprise MS ToDo/Outlook that is provided. Initially I tried to run both personal and work in ToDo and use the switching of accounts capability of MS ToDo. But it is painful, and my Nirvana set up was established after 8 months of using it daily. Overall, I now prefer it. It's not ideal, and I have to commit to reviewing both systems once a week. But I feel in control of my system, using an application of my choice.
 
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MichaelB212

MichaelB212

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mcogilvie said:
Your point about capture tools is spot on. I would extend that to the ability to transfer things between the two list apps, and also calendar, because inevitably things bleed over even in highly compartmentalized environments: appointments with the dentist, potluck group dinners, etcetera.
Click to expand...
Does anyone use a dedicated capture tool they would recommend? Ideally, one with a desktop keyboard shortcut and iPhone Lock Screen widget for quick entry...
 
G

gtdstudente

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MichaelB212 said:
Does anyone use a dedicated capture tool they would recommend? Ideally, one with a desktop keyboard shortcut and iPhone Lock Screen widget for quick entry...
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MichaelB212,

With all due respect and herein often guilty as charged:

Great "capture tool" question you might deem worthy as a new post?

As always, as you see GTD fit
 
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René Lie

René Lie

Certified GTD Trainer
MichaelB212 said:
Does anyone use a dedicated capture tool they would recommend? Ideally, one with a desktop keyboard shortcut and iPhone Lock Screen widget for quick entry...
Click to expand...
As @gtdstudente points out, this may be more appropriate under the forum category for tools and software...

That being said, you can of course never go wrong with paper! I like to keep a small note pad with me.
Being an Android and PC user I don't have Mac/iPhone specific suggestions, but I like to use my Galaxy watch for audio recording whenever somethings shows up. Braintoss is a great app for quickly capturing on your phone, but you have to unlock your phone first...

Also, is there a chance that your list manager of choice provides a widget or the possibility of a global keyboard shortcut? I used Omnifocus waaay back in time, and remember having a global shortcut for capturing. Also, on a Mac, Reminders is worth checking out as I understand (I know several people who moved from Omnifocus to Reminders as their list manager).

A little old-school, perhaps (I haven't used a Mac in quite a while), but I remember that Quicksilver had some great features that may come in handy for serving your purpose.
 
diogo431107

diogo431107

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I use Outlook notes in Android, which sync with Sticky Notes app in Windows. Workflowy has also a Chrome extension to capture and you can set a desktop shortcut for it.

I have those available, but what works for me, is keeping a notepad block in my pocket. I remember Mr. Allen suggests in the book to make use of voice activation for quick capture on handheld devices. Also not my thing.

I tried to concentrate my two systems on one tool, but GTD is a comprehensive system, and you'll have to have your calendar, paper notes, digital notes and everything else working together to make it work.

@mksilk2 nice that you got it working with two systems. I also decided to keep references, project support files separate as it should be, and it took me 2 days of my life to organize them. There was a lot of stuff.

One beneficial thing is to set up your folders in your computer organized as a tickler file if you use them as reference. I had a folder at work named "just keep it" with a miscellanea of things now they are sorted as a tickler file where they belong. A big Backup folder in the B section for things I wanted to keep just in case.

Having two reference folders for me was almost prohibitive because the amount of stuff I have to keep, but I hope once they are organized, by next week or so I hope to have the system on "cruise control", so it's just a matter of managing and navigating my tasks through my system.

Let's keep on the topic please.
 
schmeggahead

schmeggahead

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MichaelB212 said:
Does anyone use a dedicated capture tool they would recommend? Ideally, one with a desktop keyboard shortcut and iPhone Lock Screen widget for quick entry...
Click to expand...
If you are all Apple, Drafts has a desktop app with a configurable keyboard shortcut for quick entry window, several iPhone widget choices, an excellent watch app and iPad app. There is a thriving community developing actions to send text to just about any other application.

apps.apple.com

‎Drafts

‎Drafts is where text starts. Quickly capture text and send it almost anywhere! Drafts turns text into action with almost limitless possibilities – it’s a quick notebook, handy editor, and writing automation tool, all in one. Capture all of your text in Drafts and send it to other apps without...
apps.apple.com
apps.apple.com

‎Drafts

‎Drafts is where text starts. Quickly capture text and send it almost anywhere! Drafts turns text into action with almost limitless possibilities – it’s a quick notebook, handy editor, and writing automation tool, all in one. Capture all of your text in Drafts and send it to other apps without...
apps.apple.com

Hope this helps,
Clayton

With the right tool, things go faster.
 
mickdodge

mickdodge

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This where NirvanaHQ distinguished itself for me. Nirvana uses "areas" to filter and sort all your actions, projects, and reference items. I have two (2) areas: work and personal. But since they are in the same "system" (i.e., Nirvana) I can easily move back and forth between the two.
 
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