Granularity of Project List for Complex projects

Eureka5280

Registered
I've read the book multiple times and this is something that's never really been clear to me - how many "sub-projects" and "sub-sub-projects" do you normally put on your Projects list all at once? Let's use the example of selling my house this year as my complex project. Within the final outcome of selling and moving there are a number of subprojects I need to complete, such as:

  • Get fireplace repaired and in working order
  • Get kitchen sink replaced
  • Repaint baseboard trim
  • Get carpets shampooed
  • List house for sale
  • Pack and Move
In reality, each of those includes multiple projects underneath them, for example getting the kitchen sink replaced will require:

  • Choose plumber (research local plumbers, call each to request a quote, choose the one that fits best)
  • Choose and purchase replacement sink (take measurements, research options, purchase the sink and hardware)

How many of those projects, subprojects, and sub-subprojects go on your list typically? Do you list "Sell House" on your Projects list in this case, AND "Replace Kitchen Sink", AND "Choose plumber", AND "Choose and purchase replacement sink"? Do you put "Sell House" on a different list of large projects and then only the subprojects go on the active list? Some other approach?

Thanks!
 

FocusGuy

Registered
I've read the book multiple times and this is something that's never really been clear to me - how many "sub-projects" and "sub-sub-projects" do you normally put on your Projects list all at once? Let's use the example of selling my house this year as my complex project. Within the final outcome of selling and moving there are a number of subprojects I need to complete, such as:

  • Get fireplace repaired and in working order
  • Get kitchen sink replaced
  • Repaint baseboard trim
  • Get carpets shampooed
  • List house for sale
  • Pack and Move
In reality, each of those includes multiple projects underneath them, for example getting the kitchen sink replaced will require:

  • Choose plumber (research local plumbers, call each to request a quote, choose the one that fits best)
  • Choose and purchase replacement sink (take measurements, research options, purchase the sink and hardware)

How many of those projects, subprojects, and sub-subprojects go on your list typically? Do you list "Sell House" on your Projects list in this case, AND "Replace Kitchen Sink", AND "Choose plumber", AND "Choose and purchase replacement sink"? Do you put "Sell House" on a different list of large projects and then only the subprojects go on the active list? Some other approach?

Thanks!
In Omnifocus I have created one global project then subproject
I begin each subproject with the main name of the global project followed by a dash
 
Last edited:

Gardener

Registered
I don't do subprojects. That may just be a matter of semantics--is the difference between parallel projects and subprojects just whether the tool I'm using indents some things in relation to other things? Or is there an actual conceptual difference? I think there's an actual conceptual difference, but it's hard to say what it is.

I suppose one example of the difference would come with your "choose plumber". If I'm choosing a plumber based purely on the kitchen sink, that may involve different criteria when compared to choosing a plumber who will be my go-to plumber for all plumbing.

With the second, I have some hope of skipping much of the "choose plumber" phase on future plumbing projects for the foreseeable future. And it involves a decision about how I'm going to deal with things--am I going to get competitive quotes for everything, or am I going to decide that I trust this guy, and just accept that sometimes I will spend a bit more?

But that's just one little nuance, one that doesn't apply to all projects/subprojects.

I don't think that "sell house" would be on my list of projects. I might have at some point had a "make a house sale plan", with some research items and some items for finding contacts and getting advice, but that is, to me, different. And the resulting plan would be either reference or project support material, rather than being fully expressed as projects. I would draw one or two projects at a time from the plan, and the others wouldn't be in my project list at all.

Re: "Do you list "Sell House" on your Projects list in this case, AND "Replace Kitchen Sink", AND "Choose plumber", AND "Choose and purchase replacement sink"?"

Definitely not.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
Some years ago I was listening to a recording of David Allen talking to a group of people -- I cannot remember the venue or any of the other details -- during which someone asked something to the effect of, "How do you know when you've planned a project well enough"?

Allen replied, "When it's off your mind."

The audience member tried to respond with more specific concerns. Allen interrupted and said again, "When it's off your mind."

The audience member, whose concerns were clearly not allayed by that response, tried to follow up on his question yet again. And for a third time, with a bit more emphasis, Allen interrupted by responding, "When it's off your mind."

I never forgot that. It's tempting to think there's a way to do it that's optimal for everyone, but everyone's mind works differently. Moreover, even for one person the "sweet spot" can vary from project to project.

Still, you did ask for specific suggestions. Bearing in mind that this is what would make me comfortable and may not be right for you, I would list "sell house" as a project. I would list the subprojects you bulleted in the notes field for that project in my list manager (I use something called Nirvana, but that's neither here nor there). I would do this because it sounds like you've committed to each of these subprojects, and I would prefer to have a list to refer to so all that stuff isn't rattling around in my head.

There are other ways to do it. Some list managers allow for the creation of sub-projects as list items underneath but connected to a main project. I don't think I'd do it that way, but I understand some people like that approach.

There are others who would prefer to list subprojects as separate, parallel projects in their projects list. Again, it's not the way I'd do it. But there's no right or wrong answer.

I can't tell you what I'd do "typically," as you've asked, because it varies from project to project. Some projects I don't plan at all. Others, very sketchily. What I've described above is how I would likely handle something like "sell house." If I had a more complex project with a number of moving parts where certain things had to happen a certain way, in a certain sequence, in order for a successful outcome, I might plan in more detail, even going so far as to use an outliner.

I think the capabilities of your list manager would have some bearing on what you do. If you use a digital list manager that doesn't have a subprojects feature, then that's not an option for you. Unless you decide to switch list managers to solve that problem. I'm not sure that would be worthwhile, but it's not my time being invested.

There are always ways you can supplement your list manager by using another tool in conjunction with it. For example, some people use a mindmapping tool alongside their list manager. I'm not sure the project you described would require it, but again that's just me. If the approach I'd take isn't sufficient to help you get the project off your mind, that's another option out there.

My recommendation would be to take a look at the suggestions that appear in this thread and try the one(s) you like best. If the result is that the project is no longer on your mind, you've hit the sweet spot. If not, try another suggestion. Rinse and repeat until you're satisfied with the result.

Or you could decide I'm full of it and resolve to never read another thing I post ever again. That's also an option available to you. :)
 

mcogilvie

Registered
I've read the book multiple times and this is something that's never really been clear to me - how many "sub-projects" and "sub-sub-projects" do you normally put on your Projects list all at once? Let's use the example of selling my house this year as my complex project. Within the final outcome of selling and moving there are a number of subprojects I need to complete, such as:

  • Get fireplace repaired and in working order
  • Get kitchen sink replaced
  • Repaint baseboard trim
  • Get carpets shampooed
  • List house for sale
  • Pack and Move
In reality, each of those includes multiple projects underneath them, for example getting the kitchen sink replaced will require:

  • Choose plumber (research local plumbers, call each to request a quote, choose the one that fits best)
  • Choose and purchase replacement sink (take measurements, research options, purchase the sink and hardware)

How many of those projects, subprojects, and sub-subprojects go on your list typically? Do you list "Sell House" on your Projects list in this case, AND "Replace Kitchen Sink", AND "Choose plumber", AND "Choose and purchase replacement sink"? Do you put "Sell House" on a different list of large projects and then only the subprojects go on the active list? Some other approach?

Thanks!
No one has mentioned the distinction between next actions and project support, so I guess I will. GTD places a lot of emphasis on determining the desired outcome and the next actions needed to reach that outcome. Everything else is generally considered project support. This can take many forms, and the tools you use shape the form. In the case of subprojects, there may be limits to how much you can handle at one time. On the other hand, if you have a deadline on a project, it may be that you must move many subprojects along at once. David Allen’s answer of “When it’s off your mind.” is the only answer that always works when you ask how much project planning to do.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
No one has mentioned the distinction between next actions and project support, so I guess I will. GTD places a lot of emphasis on determining the desired outcome and the next actions needed to reach that outcome.
Yep. Strictly speaking, if I created a project called "sell house" in Nirvana and listed subprojects in the notes field, those would be considered project support. Good catch. It's also worth noting that if you've identified specific next actions that have to happen at some point but you can't move on now because of dependencies, those can also go in project support. If you need to list them out, that is. For some projects, maybe yes, others, maybe no.

David Allen’s answer of “When it’s off your mind.” is the only answer that always works when you ask how much project planning to do.
Which is probably why he said it three times. Or maybe he was trying to summon Beetlejuice or Candyman. I hope it was really just about project planning, though. The other stuff sounds dangerous.
 

cfoley

Registered
I avoid subprojects most of the time.

Subprojects add vertical space to my project list and more actions to my action lists. In the past just three or four complex projects with subprojects was enough to make my lists harder to review and slower to choose what action to take in the moment.

What if subprojects have complex interdependencies? One option I have tried was to have @Waiting-For entries when one subproject was blocked by another. That was not a fun experiment.

Subprojects give an illusion of parallelism. It is an illusion because I can only do one action at a time so the parallelism is fake. What the subprojects do is force extra choice in the moment. If context, time, energy and priority lead me to conclude that I should work on a complex project, then which of the subprojects should I choose to progress? It is an extra decision in the moment that uses mental resources and takes time. I would much prefer to make that decision while I am defining my work. Of all the possible actions in this complex project, I like to choose the one that WILL be the next action. I can always review that decision later.

As others have said, project support material is useful for containing milestones in a larger project. A project plan is my preference over subprojects and I like to consult support material while defining my work.
 

Eureka5280

Registered
Thank you all for some great comments! I think what I'm going to start with is putting the large project on the Projects list as well as subprojects, but only 1 level deep at most. I'll also limit to only having 1-2 active subprojects at a time to avoid crowding my lists, and I'll put all of the planning and support for the main project as well as all identified subprojects in a single place for the main project.

If that doesn't seem like it's working then I can absolutely pivot to try a different approach. Thanks again!
 

Oogiem

Registered
how many "sub-projects" and "sub-sub-projects" do you normally put on your Projects list all at once?
I don't do subprojects.

For me Sell House would be an Area of Focus. Yes it's stretching the idea of AOF but there are too many pieces for it tp be a project so AOF is how I’d calculate it.

Take the Get kitchen sink replaced project. My list of actions would start something like locate 3 local plumbers to get quotes from, choose which plumber to work with, schedule sink repair and so on.

Since repairing the sink is unrelated to repaint baseboard trim I'd have that as a separate project. If I had the bandwidth to do it I'd have both projects active at once.

Get carpets shampooed can't really be done until after you've done the painting so that would go into someday/maybe, to be done once other projects got finished.
 

Eureka5280

Registered
Thanks Oogiem! I'm curious how you integrate project planning and support with your AOFs? I have a list of AOFs that I review weekly, but it's more of a trigger list / reminder to spark thoughts about any new projects I should be activating. I don't associate actual outcomes with it necessarily, but maybe I should? My list looks like this:
BODY
  • Strength
  • Endurance
  • Weight
  • Balance & Flexibility
  • Hygiene & Maintenance
MIND
  • Presence / Mindfulness
  • Mental / Emotional health
  • Knowledge
PHYSICAL ASSETS & FINANCES
  • Employment / Career
  • Side Income
  • Debts & Liabilities
  • Invested Assets & Securities
  • Home and Real Estate
COMMUNITY / RELATIONSHIPS
  • Friends
  • Love
  • Family
  • Business Network
  • Society at Large
HOBBIES / RECREATION
  • Games
  • Art / Music / Crafts
  • Food / Drink
  • Outdoors
HABITS & PATTERNS
  • Personal Values and Ethics
  • Self Esteem and Confidence
  • Mindset and Attitude
  • Habits / Vices / Discipline
  • Planning & Reflecting
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
Subprojects give an illusion of parallelism. It is an illusion because I can only do one action at a time so the parallelism is fake. What the subprojects do is force extra choice in the moment.
Just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't any list of actions greater than one create "an illusion of parallelism"? Even if I limit myself to only one next action per project, I'm still gonna have a list of multiple actions and I'm still gonna be limited to only being able to do one thing at a time.

The reason I've always liked David Allen's suggestion to go ahead and list multiple actions for a given project if you've identified more than one, and none of them are dependent on anything else happening first, is that it seems more efficient to me. Why go back to project support repeatedly if I already know I can make three phone calls, send two emails, run two errands, create a spreadsheet for that project now?

Also, when I'm working in a given context it sometimes makes sense to stay in that context. I can start with one phone call. Maybe the one I think is most important in the moment. But when I'm in "phone mode," sometimes it makes sense to keep making calls. Sometimes it's not much harder to make ten calls than it is one (especially since there's a good chance some will go to voicemail). If I'm working on @home tasks, sometimes it's actually easier to keep working on that list than it is to switch contexts to remain in a given project. If I'm running @errands, it's nice to know all of the errands I could run without having to go back to project support. Especially since I wouldn't be looking at project support while I'm out and about; if I ran a bunch of errands, went home and identified another I could have run, I'd have to go back out. I'd be kicking myself.

I'm not saying that's always the case for me. Sometimes I stay in "project mode" and switch contexts. Sometimes I stay in "context mode" and switch projects. I know some people in this forum have expressed the view that it should be one or the other. For me, it's situational.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong or start an argument. Like I said, playing devil's advocate. Or think of it as food for thought. Or something.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
As others have said, project support material is useful for containing milestones in a larger project. A project plan is my preference over subprojects and I like to consult support material while defining my work.
I guess it depends on how you define your terms. To me, a flat list of project milestones stored in the notes field of a project in my list manager would be a list of sub-projects. I'm not sure I see the difference. Whether those sub-projects are actual list items in a list manager that supports a sub-projects feature, separate projects in a projects list, or a flat list in project support, to me it's just different ways to list out the same thing.

Again... devil's advocate. :)
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
I don't associate actual outcomes with it necessarily, but maybe I should?
I know you asked @Oogiem and not me, but I thought it wouldn't hurt if I chimed in. Especially because you can just ignore me if you so choose. :)

I've tried it both ways. Right now I'm experimenting with linking certain projects to AOFs because my list manager supports it and I want to see if there's value. But I've certainly gone without doing so.

There's no requirement to link projects to AOFs or higher horizons. But no reason you can't do so if you choose. My advice would be to make sure it doesn't become more trouble than it's worth. I think when you're choosing actions in the moment, it's best to rely on intuition and not a complex algorithm like, "What projects, AOFs, etc. is this linked to"? Once you've done your thinking, chosen your next actions and listed them out, your gut will be the best guide for what to work on in the moment given criteria like context, time, energy and priority.

Also there are some who are under the impression that everything in your lists should be a perfect hierarchy. In other words, they think every action and project should tie to an AOF, every AOF should tie to the next highest horizon, etc., with everything treeing neatly to your life's purpose. Moreover, under that line of thinking, everything at every horizon should have a corresponding next action and/or project.

I don't see it that way. For instance, in your "Body" AOF, you may already belong to a gym where you do enough cardio that "Endurance" is on cruise control. In that case, you don't have an action or a project for it. But it's nice to have in your list to review at appropriate intervals, in case you decide at some future date you need to do something more or differently.

Moreover, if one of the toilets in my house breaks, fixing it doesn't in any way tie to my life's purpose as far as I'm concerned. Nevertheless, I want it fixed.

What I'm getting at is if you choose to link actions/projects to AOFs, don't set yourself up for failure by making it a pain in the you-know-what. Link things where it make sense, but don't feel that every AOF needs a project/action or vice versa. If you make it too rigid or too much effort, you'll likely resist using the system.

Nevertheless, I'm sure Oogiem can give you tips about how she links things together. And I don't think trying it could hurt you as long as you do it in a way that serves you rather than you serving it.
 

Eureka5280

Registered
@Eureka5280, I forgot to mention: that's a really nice, well thought-out list of AOFs you have there. I'm re-thinking my own. I may steal a few of yours.

Thanks! I'm glad you like it. I agree with a lot of your thoughts above, specifically about the illusion of parallelism and the (lack of) need to fully tie every horizon level to the levels above or below it.

Realistically, I don't think I'll ever have the time or energy to have more than 2-3 big complex projects going at once, so it doesn't really warrant a new list just for those, or reorganizing my approach to AOFs to integrate the big projects at that level. Instead I think I'll stick with my plan of keeping those big projects on the Projects list with their respective subprojects, but I'm going to steal David's old trick of adding a non-standard character in front of the name like an "@" symbol. This way they'll sort to the top of the list automatically and I'll have a visual cue that these projects are at a different level than the ones on the list below them.

Great discussion!
 

cfoley

Registered
I guess it depends on how you define your terms. To me, a flat list of project milestones stored in the notes field of a project in my list manager would be a list of sub-projects. I'm not sure I see the difference. Whether those sub-projects are actual list items in a list manager that supports a sub-projects feature, separate projects in a projects list, or a flat list in project support, to me it's just different ways to list out the same thing.

Again... devil's advocate. :)

Going by your definition, I have loads of subprojects in my project support but not on my project list. My list manager doesn't have a notes field so anything that might otherwise go there goes in project support.
 

cfoley

Registered
Just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't any list of actions greater than one create "an illusion of parallelism"? Even if I limit myself to only one next action per project, I'm still gonna have a list of multiple actions and I'm still gonna be limited to only being able to do one thing at a time.

Hmm interesting. This reminds me of David Allen saying that everything on an action list is, in way, a someday/maybe item really.

The reason I've always liked David Allen's suggestion to go ahead and list multiple actions for a given project if you've identified more than one, and none of them are dependent on anything else happening first, is that it seems more efficient to me. Why go back to project support repeatedly if I already know I can make three phone calls, send two emails, run two errands, create a spreadsheet for that project now?

Yes, true. I list all the possible errands I could do that will help with a project too. For other contexts I only rarely put down more than one action per project. I really like the idea of making the choice of the next action while I am defining my work, and putting that singular bookmark for the project on my action lists.

Like you when I am doing predefined work, sometimes I stay in "context mode" and sometimes in "project mode". Often, those modes overlap. I don't always need to look at my project support to choose subsequent next actions but any previous planning that I have done is there to help me if I need it.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
Going by your definition, I have loads of subprojects in my project support but not on my project list. My list manager doesn't have a notes field so anything that might otherwise go there goes in project support.
Potato, po-tah-toe, I think. When I have a project that I can break down into components that are outcomes which might require more than one action to complete, I call 'em subprojects. I suppose you could just as easily call them something else. Project support? Milestones? Items in a project outline? Framistats? OK, one of those may not actually be a legit word. It's gotta be "milestones." That sounds made-up to me.

As for my list manager, it does have a notes field for projects. But it can't do much. I can type in simple text, not much more. I don't think it has the capability of adding attachments (at least not yet). So if my project support encompasses more than what the notes field will accommodate, it needs to live elsewhere.

Anyway, my point is, we're probably talking about the same thing. We're just saying it in different ways.
 

bcmyers2112

Registered
Yes, true. I list all the possible errands I could do that will help with a project too. For other contexts I only rarely put down more than one action per project. I really like the idea of making the choice of the next action while I am defining my work, and putting that singular bookmark for the project on my action lists.
I think really what this comes down to is two things: the types of projects one usually manages, and personal preference.

Until I lost my job a couple weeks ago, I was in sales. I had a lot of projects with numerous actions that were relatively quick. Calls to make, emails to send, proposals to create (we had a tool that automated some of that task), stuff like that. Obviously, I had a lot of meetings too, but those of course would go in my calendar. My point is, from my POV it wouldn't have made sense to identify one next action as my "bookmark." Because I could knock out multiple calls or send multiple emails pretty easily. So that's where the type of project matters, I think.

On the other hand, I also have a project to create my own comic-book. There are many actions where it's hard to say how long they'll take. Some of it will depend on how my creative juices are flowing at a given moment. But I still like listing all of the next actions I can move on. I guess for one thing, it allows me to pick the one I'm in the mood for in that moment without having to go to project support, or carry around actions in my head. So I guess this is an example of where we differ in terms of preferences.

But I do have a project where I take your approach. I want to purge and reorganize my home office. There are many actions I could list, but they're all @home items. And no one action is more important than any others. Nor is any action I've clarified depending on anything happening first (at least not yet). So in that case, I do what you do. I pick a next action as my stake in the ground, and once it's completed I'll figure out what to do next. It just doesn't seem to make sense to list 15 @home items related to this project when I can only do one at a time.

So... again... I think it comes down to the types of projects one tends to have and also what makes someone comfortable with their lists. Like @kelstarrising says, it's all about creating lists that attract rather than repel you.

But if your way works for you, it doesn't really matter what I do. I'm just throwing stuff out there as food for thought. Unfortunately, I haven't checked the expiration dates on any of my foods for thought. I'm hoping nothing has spoiled. I'd really hate to be known as the first person in this forum to give everyone thought-food poisoning.
 

Oogiem

Registered
I'm curious how you integrate project planning and support with your AOFs?
I have 8 main AOF's

Health and Fitness​
Personal Growth​
Family and Friends​
Farm Management​
LambTracker and AnimalTrakker​
Household Management​
Community Involvement​
World Traveler​
When I create projects they are often part of one or more AOFs. I have recently switched out of Omnifocus as my Task Manager into Obsidian so now all my project planning, nearly all project support and my task management is on one place. The trade off of less features using Obsidian as a task manager vs the advantage of having only one place to go and getting more proficient at it is working for me but YMMV.

Within the Obsidian system I use hierarchical tags with the AOF in the YAML front matter for each project note. I also use a curated set of project status tags in the YAML front matter. I have 2 project note templates, one for typical projects and one for recurring or yearly or monthly chore type projects that contain details on how to set a new project up as inline notes that are hidden by default.

I use the Tasks plugin to handle crating and adding my next actions for each project. I use a curated set of hierarchical tags for contexts for each task. Those tasks are in the task section of each project note.

I have 2 dashboard notes that use dataview queries to sort and show me my projects. One does them by AOF AND active projects. The other by Project status. I have 1 dashboard note that shows me my next actions by context.

At my weekly review I can pull up the project dashboard and quickly run through each project. I can pull up the AOF dashboard and see if I am neglecting an area and make an informed decision as to whether it's important to add a project or 2 there or not. I can review my next actions dashboard, usually I'm just clicking as done things I did finish but never got around to documenting but I also work on actions that I've been avoiding (they are often really projects in disguise) and in general refresh my system.
 
Last edited:
Top