Back to basics

[Folke]

I'm pretty sure you and I aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this.

I agree that it certainly does not seem likely that we will choose teh same approach, and there is nothing wrong in that.

But was perhaps hoping that I had managed to nail down what our differences really boil down to. For example, I do not think that either of us want to make things complicated. We both want "it" as simple as possible in our own minds. "It". I think, to rephrase what I have already said, that maybe the fundamental difference is what "it" is.

If you will pardon a very simplistic description, we just might be able to agree, roughly, that the real difference is whether we prefer a 1-app or a 2-app approach to implementing the lower levels of GTD.

We both have the more immediate (lower level; runway) stuff to deal with, and some recurring ticklers, and maybe a bit more. Then on top of that we may have goals or major projects etc that aim maybe a couple of years into the future. The difference is whether we want two different apps for these "different" things or just one. Both approaches I would say have comparable complexity/simplicity, but in different ways.

The 2-app approach, which I think is what you favor, has the advantage that you can choose apps much more freely for each of these, say Wunderlist for the short-term stuff and Workflowy or Word for the longer-term plans. And that also makes it possible for you to replace one without replacing the other. In principle, this is how I used to do it in the pre-computer days, and I even now sometimes consider perhaps reverting to it. There is nothing wrong with this approach at all. I know it works well. All it takes is a bit of cut-and-paste, and some app switching.

The 1-app approach, which is what I had wrongly assumed we are all looking for, and which I am still trying to use despite the various shortcomings of the now commercially available apps, has the advantage that you organize your short-term stuff immediately by what longer-term purpose it serves, and you can have the longer-term goals etc visible in the same view, say left menu, while you have your day-to-day stuff on the rest of the screen. This give me some mental comfort. And you might save yourself some pasting and app switching, too. You definitely need more functionality to cover all this in one app - fewer apps available. Om the other hand there is only one app to master.

So, there are different pros and cons. I honestly cannot say that one approach is objectively better overall. But what I think I can say with reasonable objectivity is that for the 2-app approach you do not need much in terms of hierarchies etc in the short-term app (and you do not need much automation or tagging etc in the long term-app - probably just some simple hierarchical outlining capabilities), whereas for the 1-app approach both hierarchies and daily capabilities have a most fundamental importance.

Does this description sound roughly correct to you? If so, can we agree that what we disagree about is mainly the preference we have for one approach over the other (1-app or 2-app), not really about which kind of app functionality would be most relevant for either of these two approaches, as these will obviously be different.

 

[bcmyers2112]

Many years ago, prior to 2007, we discussed this issue on this board ad nauseam.

That's funny because I first tried to get on the GTD bandwagon in 2007. Except I was lazy and instead of reading the book I tried to glean it from what bloggers unaffiliated with the David Allen Company were saying. As a result my initial understanding of GTD was that it was a purple pillow artichoke. I still don't get how could anyone with their own blog could be so wrong.

Anybody besides me remember the PigPog method? Oh, man. Those were the days.

PigPog. Yeah, I'll take my GTD lists flat, thanks.

 

[mcogilvie]

Anybody besides me remember the PigPog method? Oh, man. Those were the days.

PigPog. Yeah, I'll take my GTD lists flat, thanks.

I'm confused. PigPog used flat lists. Did it not work for you?
Did you never conquer Albania with it?

 

[bcmyers2112]

Did you never conquer Albania with it?

Sadly, no. Before I waged my brilliantly planned military campaign the batteries on my Palm IIIxe died and I was keeping everything in there. So we got lost and somehow wound up in South Carolina where a misunderstanding pitted us against a bunch of Civil War re-enactors who were able to defeat us even though they didn't have live rounds. I kinda concluded being a conqueror wasn't a club in my bag.

 

[TesTeq]

I prefer flat lists.

I'm confused. PigPog used flat lists. Did it not work for you?
Did you never conquer Albania with it?

I prefer flat lists because:

1. GTD lists are flat by definition.
2. Flat lists do not bulge my pockets. ;-)

 

[bcmyers2112]

If you will pardon a very simplistic description, we just might be able to agree, roughly, that the real difference is whether we prefer a 1-app or a 2-app approach to implementing the lower levels of GTD.

No, it's got nothing to do with one vs. two apps. It's deeper and more profound than that. At one time, I felt as you do about being able to see the different linkages between things. I was sure that would give me greater perspective and control. It didn't. Instead it led to systems that were too much work to use and maintain. An ever-shifting, ever-morphing reality would inevitably render my precious system inaccurate. It became a burden rather than an enabler. That's why I'm trying a "back to basics" approach and so far it feels like I'm on the right track.

 

[Folke]

bcmyers, I think i am beginning to get the picture. We all have different kinds of difficulties that we need to overcome, and it is always difficult to understand those that have a difficulty with something the we ourselves find totally natural.

For example, I myself have no genuine understanding for problems that other people have with the inbox and bringing it to zero all the time, and I have no problem with reference information not being linked or integrated, or with the absence of reminders and alarm bells and snooze buttons. Others raise hell over such things, whereas I would not even have known it could be a problem to some if they had not mentioned it so often.

In the same way, it seems that you and many others simply feel no need at all for constant reviewing or for keeping the dots connected all the time. You refresh the connections once in a while only, and that's enough to keep you going.

Perhaps that's as far as we can get with this discussion. Maybe our internal wiring is different. Anyway, it does not seem to be anything that lets itself be easily analyzed.

Oh, I might add, though, that in technical (software) terms this discussion essentially boils down to whether hierarchies, such as in Windows and many other kinds of software, should be encouraged or discouraged in GTD apps. It is a relatively simple and common feature elsewhere, but apparently a very infected one in GTD circles.

 

[bcmyers2112]

In the same way, it seems that you and many others simply feel no need at all for constant reviewing or for keeping the dots connected all the time. You refresh the connections once in a while only, and that's enough to keep you going.

You could look at it another way. Perhaps some people, like me, are predisposed to overcomplicate things. So if you give us too many tools and features, we'll use them all and create a hot mess. Whatever.

My only point was to reach out to people in the same boat as me, and to offer and receive support and encouragement. It is in that spirit that I intend to provide updates at reasonable intervals. I hope Soleo and perhaps others will join me. We can help each other.

I was concerned you might have taken my clarification as a personal attack, but it doesn't appear so. I'm glad. I'm just trying to help myself and others who have similar struggles.

It is a relatively simple and common feature elsewhere, but apparently a very infected one in GTD circles.

You know what? I sell enterprise-class (ie intended for organizations) software and it makes a huge difference in the accounts I serve. But somehow personal productivity software is just a mess for the most part. It seems solutions are always overbuilt where we don't need buttloads of features and underbuilt where it counts. I have tried countless apps that purport to be GTD enablers and in most cases there are one or more aspects to them that fly in the face of GTD principles.

I actually moved all of my GTD lists to Evernote last night, BTW. Maybe I'll talk about that sometime.

 

[AJS]

I actually moved all of my GTD lists to Evernote last night, BTW. Maybe I'll talk about that sometime.

Does that mean the Wunderlist experiment is over? For a digital solution I found Wunderlist to be a pretty good fit to implement GTD on the surface. They have added a lot of great features over time, many of which are available for free. The only issue for me is that I don't need a lot of those features, and to add them, some of the simplicity has gone by the wayside.

Inline editing for example is no longer a major feature, you have to double click on a task and go into the sub-menu. Not a great hardship when you are at the computer, but still gets in the way of flow when you are at work. Similarly, the mobile app looks great, but also lacks speed when you need it most. When you want to quickly enter a task on the move, there doesn't seem to be a way to do it without entering it into whichever context view you are currently in. so if you are in the @errands view, any new task will also get entered @errands which means you won't see them where you necessarily want to see them later. For this I find Doit.im is unmatched for quick capture on the go. The mobile quick add which is launched from the home screen is the fastest and most intuitive I have seen anywhere. It also launches with no lag, unlike the Wunderlist mobile app, which is essential when you are on the road.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Wunderlist suite of products, I just find that it's perhaps losing function in favor of form.

 

[bcmyers2112]

Does that mean the Wunderlist experiment is over?

Gah! I'm under a microscope now! Pressure, baby!

Seriously, nothing is set in stone. Certainly I found Wunderlist had a great deal to recommend it. Of all the list managers I tried, Wunderlist showed the most amount of what I'd call "intelligent restraint" in terms of its design.

My needs may not be common to everyone. First, I have ADHD and I find that the more I have to juggle in terms of different systems the more likely it is I'm going to drop some balls. Second, because I am board president for a small non-profit and I do almost as much "business" via my personal email as I do via my professional email. Third, I often clip web pages using Evernote for later reading, and sometimes the web pages I clip require other actions on my part.

In the first few days of experimenting with "back to basics" I was finding it hard to juggle a system where my tasks live in @Actions folders in two different email accounts, yet another @Actions folder in Evernote, and in Wunderlist. In just a few days I was feeling my system becoming disjointed. Then I remembered that I had purchased the David Allen Company GTD and Evernote Guide and I thought let's try this thing.

I followed it almost to the letter except for one thing: I use Outlook at work and at home and realized I could send both actionable emails and those worth saving for reference to Evernote. When you install the Evernote desktop app for Windows it installs a button in Outlook that allows you to easily send the email to Evernote. If you're using the Outlook Web App you can forward a copy of the email to Evernote using a special email address they assign to you.

So now I have one set of GTD lists instead of four. I find this easier to deal with. My needs are not everyone's, though. I can absolutely see how Wunderlist can make a great GTD app for people. I haven't ruled it out for all time, but I am finding that I love being able to use Evernote for everything: lists, project support, reference material.

This weekend I am trying to the first weekly review using the "back to basics" approach, and I'll do it using Evernote. That'll be a good initial test.

As an aside if anyone reading this is torn between "The Secret Weapon" approach to GTD in Evernote or the guide published by the David Allen Company -- I cannot say this strongly enough: BUY THE DAVID ALLEN COMPANY GUIDE -- AT $10 IT'S A BARGAIN. Seriously. I've bought more than one guide from the David Allen Company and I have NEVER been disappointed.

 

[bcmyers2112]

Tomorrow I'm going to attempt my first weekly review with my stripped-down, no-frills GTD system. I am feeling some trepidation. Part of me is asking, "Am I about to experience yet another failure?"

I doubt I'm the only person in these forums who hasn't been plagued by this sort fear before trying something difficult, where success is far from guaranteed.

I keep a quote in my files that I like to re-read at times like these to keep things in perspective. It's a Michael Jordan voiceover from a Nike commercial: "I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

I realize Nike just wanted to sell sneakers, but truth is truth no matter where you find it. Thanks everyone for offering your ideas and thoughts. I hope what I contributed was of commensurate value. Later.

 

[ext555]

wunderlist and evernote -back to basics

I follow wunderlist on twitter , seems like they still have outages , sync issues and now I see they published a script to fix the mac app from crashing on start up .

Let us know how your " BTB " weekly review goes with evernote , I'm curious .

 

[bcmyers2112]

Let us know how your " BTB " weekly review goes with evernote , I'm curious .

I went back to Wunderlist. Turns out my initial instinct was the correct one. I will post an update but wanted to lay low for a bit. Didn't want to wear out my welcome.

 

[ext555]

pretty hard to wear out your welcome : )

I think the only thing that will wear out your welcome around here is posting often on " why GTD doesn't work " etc .
I've never understood the people that show up and start posting like that .
Not sure why they need to bash a product they don't even use .. oh well .
All that to say , frequent posting is not illegal : )

I've tried wunderlist but the iPhone app seems a little " clunky " to me .