Does GTD help with Depression or other mental disorders?

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Stephen

Registered
I have read that GTD is making great inroads into helping ADD people have a more meaningful life. GTD is a tool that can give so many people hope.

With all the broken agreements, incompletes, and open loops that are the norm in our fast-paced world, it's no surprise that mental illness is on the rise.

Since Next-Action decision making produces Clarity, Accountability, Productivity, and Empowerment, it seems that this way of life would be an antidote preventing the slide into mental illness.

Do you have a story about how GTD has pulled you, or someone you know, out of the clutches of depression or another form of mental illness?

I know that depression is still "taboo" talk in many circles, especially if it is from personal knowledge.

Can you envision a future where GTD is the drug of choice instead of Paxil, Prozac, or Lexipro?

Stephen
 
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CosmoGTD

Guest
Hi there, i don't want to be too contrarian, but i think that is going a bit to far with GTD.
Real, clinical depression and serious mental disorders need much more that a personal organization system. And many drugs do help a lot of people.

In my personal view, CBT and REBT are two systems of cognitive-behavioral therapy with decades of research that help with these issues.
GTD fits perfectly with these systems.

But in my view, GTD on its own is about being more productive, and those with a serious mental illness would be wise to seek GOOD professional help.
Also, those with "obsessive" types of mental illness, could go overboard with GTD and other systems, and then actually create more problems for themselves.

That being said, if GTD as a tool has helped someone with a mental illness that is GREAT! Whatever works!

One of the things i like about GTD is that he has minimized the psychobabble. VERY SMART.
Many non-psychologist "Personal Development" guys get into psychobabble, and use this as a type of technique to manipulate their followers.
If David Allen went this route, i would dump him in a minute.
Psychology is not for amateurs. Find the best experts in the world, and consult with them.

GTD is for making the Knowledge Worker more productive and having less stress, its not a type of therapy or a psychological system.

Coz
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Jane

Stephen, I would love to read whatever you've seen about GTD helping people with ADD-style thinking. Can you hook me up with those references?

ADD or not, many of us were never taught basic organizational skills. Nor was there anyone to mimic. Growing up, most adults around me had their stuff together and were getting things done, but they were not doing anything much out of the ordinary. I did see that one should file paid bills alphabetically... But I never learned what to do with the creative projects and their necessary gold and dross. Really compounding the problem was that nobody talked about this organizational stuff. It was a bigger secret than sex. Who could you ask a dopey question such as "what do I do with my half-written history of widgets? "

I am not being literal, of course, but I am here to tell ya, that it is extremely depressing and crazy-making and terribly damaging to self-esteem to have incompletes, messes, and what-might-have-beens. The snowball effects are considerable.

By nature, I am about average when it comes to being organized and getting things accomplished. Yet the healing (corny word, but apt) that even I have felt from the little bit of GTD that I have understood and applied cannot be underestimated.

I've known others - so much more gifted, and so talented - who are depressed because they are not meeting their potential and using their gifts. One guy says it's his FAMILY CURSE that he has accomplished nothing, that he has had great ideas and dreams that rot half finished in his attic. It is very heartbreaking to observe. Some of these people take Prozac. Some use numbing techniques (TV, excessive on-line activity) to cope. I try to observe this behavior and use it as a reverse-roll-model. I try to implement more GTD every day.
 
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MTMER

Guest
I discovered GTD a number of years ago -- I don't implement it as fully as I could but I'm pretty good at it so far. For all of my pregnancies I have dealt with very severe post-partum depression. Only for the last pregnancy did I have experence w/GTD and I think it made a tremendous difference.

When I could feel the depression start to overtake me like a fog, I cannot tell you how comforting it was to know that I had full confidence in my collection tools and in being able to break projects and actions down. The "next action" on some of my projects were actually "itty-itty-bitty-next-action-wannabees" but that was all that I could handle until I got through the worst of it. Some days my only progress was staying alive another day.

In the past, coming out of a bad depression usually lead to an awful secondary depression from all the debris of not functioning well for some time. This last time around, the secondary depression was not so bad -- I was overwhelemed with what had to be done, but not paralyzed. I knew where I had left off with all my important projects and I knew how to jump in with processing. (I also liberally moved about half of my projects to the trashcan or to "someday/maybe".)

GTD is powerful, but I don't see it directly doing anything for the low-serotonin in my brain or for the dramatic hormone shifts after giving birth. While lack of organization can contribute to depression, I don't think organization all by itself cures it either.

Meg
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Meg, very interesting. I like how you articulated it. It gives me better understanding of GTD as structure. Jane
 
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Arduinna

Registered
In the past, coming out of a bad depression usually lead to an awful secondary depression from all the debris of not functioning well for some time. This last time around, the secondary depression was not so bad -- I was overwhelemed with what had to be done, but not paralyzed. I knew where I had left off with all my important projects and I knew how to jump in with processing. (I also liberally moved about half of my projects to the trashcan or to "someday/maybe".)
Click to expand...

IMO, this is brilliant, and a terrific affirmative response to the question of whether GTD can help one in depression. I can't find sourcing for it, but I have read that completing tasks releases endorphins, the feel-good chemical ("runner's high," etc.). If this is true, then if a depressed person isn't constitutionally incapable of experiencing that pleasure, getting things done should help. I don't see it altering fundamental neurotransmitter problems and alleviating clinical depression, or offsetting a circumstance-based depression (job loss, death of a loved one), but in working out of general downward spiral, it could at least theoretically be a boon. You feel morose, but commit to your NA and get it done and get a little lift of satisfaction/brain chemicals in the wake of accomplishment; you commit to and finish another NA, with the same result, and feel incrementally better. The demonstrable results justify the sense of pleasure and satisfaction. In this sense, GTD could be seen as a form of behavior modification (action vs. inertia). It may be less useful in AD/HD, simply because the lack of a hard structure in determining the right NAs makes that a morass of possibility, or an ADD sandtrap. All IMO.

Meg, is the concept of "secondary depression" yours?
 
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CosmoGTD

Guest
Any type of Behavior Therapy can be useful when dealing with a depression.
But along with this, one needs to do a lot of work with ones thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.
And for very serious depression, antidepressants can be very helpful.
So its best if one does all of these, pharmacological, behavioral, and cognitive-emotive.

But for those with Obsessive personality traits, GTD and things like this, really could just make the problem much worse. Some people with this problem go overboard and literally try to order EVERY single tiny Next Action in their existence, and create a type of obsessive, perfectionistic spiral, which ends in dumping the system, and moving on to the NEXT system....

I would stick to proven and tested Cognitive-Behavioral-Emotive methods for serious psychological problems.

Since this thread is about mental disorders, have a look (below) at the criteria for the Obsessive Personality...very interesting.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe10.html

Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder

Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
4. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
8. shows rigidity and stubbornness
 
M

MTMER

Guest
The "secondary depression" is just based on my own experience -- it's probably a common phenomenon.

I also agree that GTD would be a mess to implement in the midst of a bad depressive episode. My very limited experience has been that having the structure in place before a bad episode made it easier to keep moving. GTD didn't "fix" the depression, but it did allow me to hold on to some small pieces of my normal self -- that helped me weather the lows.

Meg
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I have depression and anxiety. A few years ago I did CBT and it helped tremndously, in fact if you're ready to feel better I'm a firm believer that's the way out without medication. I jsut read GTD last weekend. I loved it so much I wrote my CBT therapist a letter suggesting she look into it for helping her patients.

More than anything I think it helps with anxiety. Symptoms of anxiety include worry, a sense of overwhelming doom, constant spinning over the same thought. One of the things CBT teaches you is to get those thoughts -- out of your head, so you can examine them.

CBT helps with the internal view. The emotional organization. How to examine and evaluate the messages you tell yourself (often you don't realize the extent of your internal dialog until you go through the CBT process.) The theory being that thoughts/feelings/behaviors are all eelated. Each influences the other. If you can control one of those, you can affect the other two.

That said from what I've read in GTD. GTD provides amazing techniques for the next phase. How to organize the external. And how to organize your interactions no so much with your internal dialog, but the dialog you have with the world. It also provides a guide for how to get it all out of your head in an organized and productive fashion.

Also, the technique of breaking things down to next steps is incredibly helpful for both depression and anxiety. For depression it makes it easier to get going. A little step at a time. For anxiety it would help break down that overwhelming panic sense of doom into manageable actions.

Like another poster said, CBT and GTD complement each other. I don't think someone who has depression or anxiety could just do GTD and feel better. You really have to get a handle on the internal messages before you start with the external. Without changing that you might not be able to see or feel your progress. You might sabotage yourself with negative thinking, you're not even aware of.

That said, GTD is definitely the next phase. I can't wait to implement it.
 
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Jamie Elis

Registered
GTD and mental disorders

I agree with all of the above but would add that there are a few ways that GTD can be especially helpful.
1. anything that reduces stress helps.
2. clarifying thinking is always helpful.
3. If you are not taking care of your basic business due to emotions then doing the work step by step can only help.You will feel more in control.
4. Some depressions are charcterized by "work inhibition" and I don't know of any clinical approach that really takes on that symptom as a focus of treatment.

There are sometimes when GTD could possibly do some harm:
1. Someone in a manic state or getting into one who does not realize that he or she is getting "up there".
2. Someone who is so obsessive that he or she just obsesses about GTD methodology and doing it not right but just perfectluy, hair splitting the terminology, etc and never gets to an action.
3. Someone whose goals are anti-social.
4. Someone who is too fragile to take the bigger perspective.
5. Someone who tries to adopt the system too fast.
6. Someone who believes it is a substitute for treatment.
7.Someone who floats from one self-help method to another, hopeing and praying that it will finally work but just can't work the method and then feels like a failure. That person would be wise to pick one step and do that step until he or she gets it right or has a clear reason for why it does not apply to them.
 
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GreySim

Guest
The "secondary depression" thing mentioned above has happened to me also, so it's not just Meg (if I remember who made that original post).

______
Dennis
(Considering registering for the forums when I get home.)
 
jerendeb

jerendeb

Registered
GTD & Depression, other disorder

I have not fully actualized GTD in my life to my satisfaction. I have had many challenges that are in the realm of this topic. I do know one big thing, when I am able to harness the desperation that accompanies my own intolerance of being disordered + the traits which are similar to OCPD (namely an above average attention to detail) + the discipline needed to keep it together, this all = self-esteem/self-repect/self-confidence and at the very least the illusion of having 'it' all together. Then I am free to be paying attention to all those other altitudes & levels of life.
 
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pbs

Guest
I have suffered from depression for many years and have been on medication for 16 years. I purchased the GTD book, thinking it would help me "get my life in order". Anyway, I have put the book away and abandoned all hope of implementing GTD because it just seems so overwhelming and doesn't appear to have "structure" (for lack of a better word) to it. Something about not having a "To Do" list just throws me off balance and I can't seem to grasp how to handle daily workflow with GTD. Any suggestions?
 
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CosmoGTD

Guest
My advice would be to Keep It Super Simple.

Start with an Inbox.
@ Waiting For
@ calls (list of calls)
just pick a few tricks that you like to start with.

If you feel it would be helpful, make a simple list of Things To Do Today.
Or even more simple, pick ONE thing to do at a time.
(Dr David Burn's in the Feeling Good Handbook has specific strategies for how depressed people can deal with procrastination).
Figure out how to make it work for YOU. Start simple, evolve the process...

Hey, sometimes when i am feeling really unfocussed, i will just type a list of things to do in my Today Outlook Calendar.
Heresy!

Then i do them!
Sometimes its fun to break the rules.

Anything worth doing is worth doing badly...
 
A

Arduinna

Registered
Some things about GTD did not make real sense to me until I got the Time/Design system. It's set up physically in a way that holds information in a logical way, so it's all accessible but ordered and not overwhelming. It is, IMO, the missing piece of the puzzle. I hadn't known DA's history with Time/System (Time/Design) until recently, and while the absence of a recommendation for the system is understandable, it seems a shame.

I have no relationship to Time/System except as a new customer, and I am still doing basic GTD implementation, so take my recommendation accordingly. But for if you're having trouble putting a GTD system together and want to be paper-based, I think it's worth a look.
 
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PT1

Guest


Hi,

I have depression and ADHD/LD and can relate to your situation. Initially, when I purchased the book, it was like reading Greek to me as it made no sense whatsoever. But by being on the GTD Yahoo Lists and coming to this forum, I started to get some understanding. As a result, I found it easier to understand the book although I am definitely not at a black belt level.

Regarding doing away with the "to do" list, I can't intuitively pick out what needs to be done from a list of tasks. My eyes simply would glaze over and I fear I would miss something important.

So I first schedule anything that has to be done on a certain day such as picking up meds by placing it in my task list. They get a 1 priority. Afterward, I list any task that I would like to get done and their priority is 2. If anything doesn't get done, I am perfectly content in moving them to another day as I use Agendus for the Desktop and Agendus for the Palm.

I do try to slot tasks that have the same context on the same day. For example, on Friday, I am going to a shopping mall to buy summer clothes and also buy a bus pass since a bank near the mall sells them.

During the work week, I try to keep my task list as light as possible as I know my energy level isn't the same as it is on the weekends.

I would definitely follow Cosmo's advice and start simple. Also, apply what works for you and discard the rest. The best part of GTD for me is the way that projects are broken down. For someone like me who often doesn't have a clue as to where to start with a project, this is so valuable.

Finally, I know this is hard but GTD is not going to make up for what is not working in your life such as a bad job or a rotten relationship. But it can definitely give you the impetus to do something about it although obviously, that won't happen right away if you are dealing with depression.

Yesterday, I wanted to cry as I have done in the past when I had the day from h-ll at work. In the past, I wouldn't have gotten anything done the rest of the day. This time, it was different as I stayed focused and completed some necessary tasks.

Finally, I have started tracking how much of my time I am spending in different areas of my life with Agendus's Palm chart. When I am really tired or discouraged, I find it very uplifting to look at that chart and see that I really have been accomplishing alot.

Personally, I wouldn't do this for now but maybe down the road, you want to do something similar and track your accomplishments. It doesn't have to be as fancy as what I am doing.

I hope this helps and feel free to ask me any follow up questions.

PT
 
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Peter, still unregistered

Guest
Connection betwen DA and Time/system or Time Design?

Hi Arduinna,

I noticed yuo mention some "obvious" clash between DA and TS. I am interested in hearing what you know, or is there a web link I can refer to?

Peter.
 
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Arduinna

Registered
Source for TS/DA history

Hi Peter, still unregistered,

Here is the thread in which I read the story--last post.
http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2870

BTW, a 2004 thread on Time/Design is now active in the "Gear" forum, and it includes a link to a TS website that provides a number of the forms free, in PDF format. Printing a bunch and playing with them for a few days led me to buy the system.
http://www.ts.mvecrm.de/index.php?st_location=home/service/print_service&st_version=active

Hope that helps.
 
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