Initiative

Desultory

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I too am a writer who enjoys browsing the web, which means I am presuming that I understand your situation (based on what I can glean from your Project list).

In your first post, you sounded like you were worried that you were spending too much time checking blogs. In a later post, you describe quite nicely the pleasure you get from that. It's absolutely fine to acknowledge that you enjoy doing this, and to make time for it. But it's not fine to realize that you are caught in a "status loop", when you really want to finish writing a story. At least, I think that's what you're worried about. If so, then on some level, you have realized that you need to set a limit on your blogs.

I'm not telling you to stop reading them entirely. I am warning you that blogs a are the Inbox to an infinite Read/Review stack. But you know that.
 

kewms

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Brent said:
Or, look at it this way: As a thought experiment, what might cause this behavior besides procrastination?

Why don't you tell us what you think is causing it?

Katherine
 
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ADD GTDer

Guest
Initiative

Brent said:
As a thought experiment, what might cause this behavior besides procrastination?

As I think you said, ADHD (or maybe I should say ADHD-like tendencies - yours may just not be that severe) :) My doctor says I do this sort of thing to "change channels" so I can re-engage when I come back. If I'm not constantly changing my environment my brain goes numb. Not sure if that helps...

Janice
 

eowyn

Registered
Is it a case of poker machine addiction? - Keep checking the blogs/web-sites, and every now and again, you get a "win" - which is something new to read. ( I have a feeling this is called "operant conditioning" but I could be wrong).

There is one particular forum I have this behaviour on. *sigh*

Regards
Eowyn
 

andersons

Registered
YOU gave the example, though

Brent said:
I will also ask those here to understand that blogs are only one example of this behavior. I appreciate the suggestions here about them, but I am more interested in advice about the behavior, not the example.
For one thing, it is the only understandable example you gave.

That's why I asked for clarification at first. Your story is inconsistent with itself. People have given advice about the one situation you did describe very clearly. Read your first post again. There you gave a clear example of a specific behavior, asked for advice about it -- and that's exactly what you got. Completely reasonable.

The rest of your posts are unclear. You mention "doing this" while gardening, but it's not clear what you're doing. If you are a writer, you will recognize the indefinite pronoun reference. You generalized your first problem -- incorrectly -- as getting into a 'status loop' checking 'inboxes'. It's hard to imagine what inboxes need to be checked while gardening.

In another post, you claim to be "focused on the task at hand," but the specific example you gave in the first post is not even remotely consistent with being "focused."

Even if you cannot clarify the behavior you want to understand, one problem is very clear. Your application of the concept of "inbox" lacks wisdom -- the trait of applying knowledge and experience with common sense and insight -- and will guarantee predictable problems like the clear one you described in your first post. Whatever other problems you want to understand, you'll have to describe them. If there are lots of examples, describe some. Clearly.
 
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tuneczar

Guest
Just a guess...

Without any professional credentials to back this up, I'd suggest that the original poster is attempting to describe his awareness that he is essentially compulsive.

It's easy enough to fall into. Perhaps the task at hand is to recognize this inability to "pull away" from a pleasurable activity and get on with more important or urgent activities.

So, my advice: pick the answer from this forum that resonates with you, but you must learn to break away if you hope to move forward. Remember, if you are keeping all NAs in your trusted system, you won't be missing anything -- but you must learn to *ACT* on each one in turn.

HTH,
~TC
 
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pageta

Guest
Here is a bit of a different angle...perhaps. I find that I am most compulsive about checking blogs and such things when the thing I need to be working on requires thought or I am not sure exactly how to do it. I remember reading a book about writing once where the author said she did some of her best writing while moving the dish cloth slowly around the dishes as she "piddled" with doing the dishes instead of sitting down with a piece of paper and writing.

In my business, people are always telling me to delegate the things I don't "have" to do. Well, that's great and all, but if I had to just work all of the time, I would go crazy. I get some of my best ideas while vacuuming the floor, washing the dishes, and taking out the trash. When I'm stuck working at a desk in a desk job, surfing the web takes the place of cleaning the house or working in the garden.

Ideas come from the oddest of places. Sometimes they surprise me. Perhaps that's why I find the need to work on something directly and then do something else in order to let my subconscious mind work on the problem. Otherwise I literally give myself headaches.

So while it may seem that I am very much procrastinating, in the long run, I am accelerating the completion of the project by allowing myself down time. Perhaps. I know my obsession with blogs grows when I have a major thought project that I'm working on. When I don't have anything that I'm trying to resolve in my mind, my interest in blogs wanes to where I can check them 20% as much or less as during peak times.
 
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tuneczar

Guest
deadlines, etc.

pagetaIdeas come from the oddest of places. Sometimes they surprise me. Perhaps that's why I find the need to work on something directly and then do something else in order to let my subconscious mind work on the problem.[/QUOTE said:
Pagedata, I completely agree that it's important to allow yourself to have some mental "down time" to allow for random free-association to get flowing...yes, yes, absolutely.

My experience with being compulsive and/or avoiding getting started is that I will inevitably put myself into a *really, really* tight deadline. Now that CAN sometimes be amazingly productive, especially in a creative field, but it's can also be bloody stressful!

As much as I hate it at times, I just have to make myself jump right in and get started on that list of NAs. That's what I suggest -- just do something, however small, to move the action forward and begin to get your momentum rolling.
 
G

grt

Guest
Practical Suggestions

This topic really resonates with one of my struggles.

I love to gather new information, love being an expert, love learning all I can, love analyzing things ad nauseum.

When I'm doing something I love, it is very difficult to break my concentration. It's kind of a hyper-focus. It might even be "mind like water".

BUT, I also know at a certain point, these things I love get in the way of being productive in other areas. I do these things I love, sometimes, to avoid other tasks that a) do not bring me as much pleasure, or b) overwhelm me, or c) cause me anxiety.

I am not successful nearly as much as I would like, but what I have tried is:

1. Make it difficult to visit the blog and website (or do whatever activity it is that I want to reduce) Take it off my favorites list (I did this with this forum.) :| Don't buy the Sudoku book. Delete solitaire and minesweeper software. Walk away from my PC.

2. Schedule a commitment that forces me to shift my focus. Set my reminder to go off on Outlook, make plans to walk with a friend, read a book with my daughter before bedtime.

3. Replace the hyper-focused activity with another activity that I'll enjoy more.

These may seem really simplistic, and probably more helpful if you're willing to stop the activity completely, but in my experience, this hyper-focus is very strong. I can even hear myself telling myself to stop, STOP, STOP , but that rarely helps me. So I've had to set up other triggers that stop me for me.

Hope this helps even a little!
 

severance1970

Registered
Brent said:
Just had an insight.

I've noticed that I tend to get trapped in "status loops," where I'm constantly re-checking various inboxes to see if anything new has come in. For example, I'll check Fark to see if there are any new items, then Google News, then some of my favorite blogs (Lileks' Bleat, p1k3, etc.), and once I've done that, I wonder what else I'm missing. I might go back to Fark, or go through my bookmarks for sites I haven't visited in awhile, instead of closing the web browser and going on to other things that need doing.

When this occurs, I have a vague, throbbing sense that I should be completely up-to-date with whatever project I'm on at the moment. I don't even think about other things that need to be done.

Does anyone else have this habit? If so, what do you do to conquer it?

I apply the two-minute rule. I have no qualms about checking for updates on a site if it takes less than two minutes. I'll even post on a site (like now) if it takes less than two minutes. If these activities take longer, I'll put them on my @online list (which I keep separate from @computer), and wait for a more appropriate time.
 

remyc88

Registered
Brent said:
Just a note: This is not procrastination. Procrastination is "To put off doing something, especially out of habitual carelessness or laziness" according to the American Heritage Dictionary.

I think that definition is too general.

If we begin with the notion that procrastination is not the basic "problem" but rather an attempted "cure" for fears, self-doubts, and dislike of work, then it is obvious that most procrastinators will have to focus on the real problems--underlying fears, attitudes and irrational ideas--in order to overcome the procrastinating behavior.
Source: http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap4/chap4r.htm

It seems like you have a need to be always “up-to-date”--that you are afraid or unwilling to start a project until you have all the information.

It’s like when people are waiting for the perfect time to start something, e.g. “I’ll start exercising after I finish this big project” or “Once I get this pda, then I’ll be able to get organized.”

An excellent post from CosmoGTD: Be aware, that reading all of these books on procrastination is an elegant form of procrastination that lets you feel relieved that you are doing something about your procrastination problem without really doing anything about it.
Source: http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3416 (btw, that link's topic seems somewhat similar to this topic)

And as cheesy as this sounds, never confuse motion with action (or activity with productivity).
 

andersons

Registered
diagnosis. . .

Brent said:
A particular result might have one of many causes. Murder and suicide have the same result, but the different causes are very important.
I agree. I believe it is powerful to understand causes. And sometimes it may be nearly impossible to change a resulting effect without understanding its underlying cause.

But human behavior seems complex; so a lot of times we plain just don't know. And the main way we identify causes is by working backwards from solutions. Most medical "breakthroughs" are found in this way.

If you go to a doctor for a diagnosis, and the doctor knows what she's doing, she'll identify a bunch of possibilities consistent with symptoms and proceed to try to rule some out by doing the easiest, safest, and least expensive tests first. Or even prescribe solutions to see if they work.

That is why I try the most obvious and straightforward -- and safest -- approach to a solution first. So I advocated changing the way you look at inboxes and clarifying connections between actions and goals. And setting a timer before you go into this state. This is essentially a straightforward cognitive-behavioral approach; it's simple and safe to try it; it can't hurt and it might help. And if it helps, you now have a good idea of the behavior's cause.

If the safe, straightforward solution doesn't work, you are still closer to understanding the cause since you have identified a factor that is not it. At least not all by itself. The Thomas Edison approach.

Brent said:
Or, look at it this way: As a thought experiment, what might cause this behavior besides procrastination?
I still don't understand the behavior(s). I see 2 different things in your posts:

1) The web surfing example in the first post. This one still looks to me like it might have a simple, straightforward cause and solution. This is the behavior most of us in this thread have tackled because as described it seems solvable.

2) The excessive focus thing. Much tougher. I still don't understand this. Take your bathtub example: the only thing I could come up with was ?????? Don't understand. I understand the idea of excessive focus in principle, but I can't relate. And I don't think most people will relate because it is not a common problem; the common problem is not focusing enough.

Not understanding this problem, I was unwilling to take a stab at it. Really need more facts; logic is no good when it depends on all assumptions and no facts. So a thought experiment? Maybe first-pass hypotheses to elicit more facts. . . :)

1) Some neurochemical brain dysfunction. Could be caused by a drug or supplement. Definitely not ADHD: the opposite of ADHD. ADHD is helped by drugs that increase dopamine in certain brain areas. Many, many, many drugs and supplements increase dopamine and could cause excess focus of attention for you. For example, if you happen to be taking Ritalin. Or 'fat burners' or 'energy' supplements, caffeine, tyrosine, vinpocetine, glucosol, vanadium, gingko, NADH, St. John's wort, alcohol, opiates, cocaine, nicotine, amphetamines, etc., etc., etc. And of course all supplements that specifically claim to "enhance focus."

2) Some sort of fugue state -- but it sounds too mild.

3) Obsessive-compulsive disorder? Sounds similar but too mild.

Aerobic exercise is a powerful modulator of brain function too; it seems to help just about any brain dysfunction, so you could try that too.

[Disclaimer: you must of course see a health professional about any of these possibilities.]
 
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pageta

Guest
andersons said:
Not understanding this problem, I was unwilling to take a stab at it. Really need more facts; logic is no good when it depends on all assumptions and no facts. So a thought experiment? Maybe first-pass hypotheses to elicit more facts. . . :)

1) Some neurochemical brain dysfunction. Could be caused by a drug or supplement. Definitely not ADHD: the opposite of ADHD. ADHD is helped by drugs that increase dopamine in certain brain areas. Many, many, many drugs and supplements increase dopamine and could cause excess focus of attention for you. For example, if you happen to be taking Ritalin. Or 'fat burners' or 'energy' supplements, caffeine, tyrosine, vinpocetine, glucosol, vanadium, gingko, NADH, St. John's wort, alcohol, opiates, cocaine, nicotine, amphetamines, etc., etc., etc. And of course all supplements that specifically claim to "enhance focus."

2) Some sort of fugue state -- but it sounds too mild.

3) Obsessive-compulsive disorder? Sounds similar but too mild.

Aerobic exercise is a powerful modulator of brain function too; it seems to help just about any brain dysfunction, so you could try that too.

Okay, I think this might be going a little too far. I know I will become completely immersed in projects - whatever they are - and ignore everything else. I don't think that is a mental disorder. I always credit it to lack of discipline, and I credit GTD with it happening a lot less. But I will be the first to admit to spending the entire day surfing the web and then it's dinner time and my husband is home and wants to know what I did all day...

I say that GTD helps considerably because where I get stuck is with thinking of what to do. I need something more interesting to do than surfing the web. If I have my next actions written down and they are specific and I've reviewed them within the last 24 hours, I don't waste a day surfing the web. If, on the other hand, I have to think about what I need to do, it requires too much thought and I go back to surfing the web. That's the beauty of having specific next actions sorted into contexts.

I would say that since I started GTD, I may have wasted a couple hours here or there at most on surfing the web, but I have not gotten so immersed in the web or some other project that everything else slid. But I can easily see where if I was in a context where I did not have next actions clearly specified, I could easily just waste time or become overly focused on a single project and everything else would slide.

I know I can very easily become so immersed in something that everything else slides. I've tried Flylady's routines for the things I needed to do every day, but even then I wouldn't get them done because I would be busy working on something else. Now that I have those things and other things turned into specific next actions, I get them done.

An example: fixing supper. Fixing supper can easily be ignored and fall by the wayside, especially if I get immersed in some project. But if I replace "fix supper" with "make bean soup," it gets done. "Fix supper" sounds like it would require effort (what am I going to make? do I have the ingredients?), so I avoid it and continue my project because I feel like I'm being productive and making progress. But if all I need to do is make bean soup, I can step away from whatever the project is long enough to do that and then go back to the project. Then when my husband comes home, there is food to eat...even if I surfed the web for the remainder of the day.

The idea of having a bookmark next action for a project has also helped me. I can stop knowing that when I come back to it, I am going to do X. I don't have to worry about re-immersing myself in it in order to make any progress.

Since implementing GTD, I am amazed at the things I have gotten done. They are things that either would not have gotten done before because I thought I needed a big chunk of time in order to do them and now I break them down so I know more of an idea how much time I need. I also trust myself to come back and finish things since I know how to leave a bookmark (next action) so I don't have to get so immersed that I need to reserve an entire day to accomplish a single task.

I'm sure I'm rambling, but I hope I made a semblance of a point in what I've said.
 
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pageta

Guest
Then again...I seem to have immersed myself deeply enough in a project that I did not notice the mess my toddler was making at the other end of the room...

I think some people just have the [dis]ability to block everything else out and really focus on something. Whether that is an ability or a disability probably depends on the situation.
 

andersons

Registered
pageta said:
Okay, I think this might be going a little too far. I know I will become completely immersed in projects - whatever they are - and ignore everything else. I don't think that is a mental disorder. I always credit it to lack of discipline, and I credit GTD with it happening a lot less.
pageta, I honestly think that your situation may be very different from Brent's. Not all people's problems are caused by lack of discipline or specific next actions. What seems far-fetched to you may be another person's reality. Brent says his next actions are fine. Brent asked for "thought experiments", actually speculation, about what could cause his behavior -- assuming that his projects and next actions are fine and assuming that he's not deliberately avoiding other tasks.

I did read all his posts carefully before I threw out this speculation; I am a brain researcher; he is free to reject it if it's inconsistent with the complete picture that only he knows about. Free speculation can sometimes lead to fruitful ideas we would not have considered otherwise. Take it for what it is -- brainstorming by someone who studies brain function. But it's speculation only.

More importantly, though, a "mental disorder" is a brain dysfunction, certainly not something to be ashamed of or refuse to consider. Non-optimal function of the brain's attention system is not extreme or bizarre. It is certainly intriguing that complex behaviors can be altered by tweaking the dopamine receptors. For example, a form of "procrastination" can be eliminated by dopamine-altering drugs. Brains can function non-optimally just as easily as anything else in the body. It can easily happen; and it's not far-fetched at all. It's not that different from, say, an immune dysfunction that causes allergies.

In my opinion, "lack of discipline" does not explain behavior, it merely describes it: choosing an activity with immediate reward requiring low effort rather than a future reward requiring more effort.
 
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Sante

Guest
Mind the bump...

I know this thread is pretty old, but what Brent (and to an extent pageta) describe sounds exactly like me - not that I've done the GTD thing, I will read that next... - in that I suffer from hyper-focus - on net surfing, sudoku, computer games, but very seldom what I actually want to be doing to achieve my long-term goals.

Brent, if you found any solution/description/tools for dealing with this I would love to know about it.
 

TesTeq

Registered
Do you really have long-term goals?

Sante said:
I know this thread is pretty old, but what Brent (and to an extent pageta) describe sounds exactly like me - not that I've done the GTD thing, I will read that next... - in that I suffer from hyper-focus - on net surfing, sudoku, computer games, but very seldom what I actually want to be doing to achieve my long-term goals.
Do you really have long-term goals that you are commited to?

Did you define Project(s) and successful outcome(s) for each long-term goal?

Did you define Next Actions for these Projects?

If not - you have no long-term goals.
 
K

kmhlamia

Guest
I'd agree that obsessive loops are slightly different from procrastination, although I often find that I'm prone to obsessive loops when I'm trying to avoid thinking about something emotional, rather than something tangible that I need to do. Have you tried a timer? I find it can break me out of obsessive loops and make me go and do something else. Of course, I do break my own rules a fair bit but at least it focuses my awareness a little.

Kirsty
 

DStaub11

Registered
A point of interest--people with ADD have the ability to hyperfocus when something is fascinating to them. Looking at my daughter, who has ADD, I consider this a benefit of that particular brain configuration! So the hyperfocusing behavior is not actually inconsistent with ADD. (Not that I'm implying that you have ADD, Brent).

Do Mi
 
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