Interesting David Allen's remark about GTD applications.
- Thread starter TesTeq
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Interesting David Allen's remark about GTD applications
Yes that comment "rang a bell" with me. I understand what he is saying. It's the reason after trying many different software options, I settled on Palm Desktop. It's not perfect but it's a good list maker.
All the other software I've tried is either not compatable in some way or adds more sophistication than I need, or is slower or has sync issues.
I've been on the GTD trail for nearly four years and wasted so much time in the first two and half, experimenting and tweaking my system instead of getting things done!
Steve
Yes that comment "rang a bell" with me. I understand what he is saying. It's the reason after trying many different software options, I settled on Palm Desktop. It's not perfect but it's a good list maker.
All the other software I've tried is either not compatable in some way or adds more sophistication than I need, or is slower or has sync issues.
I've been on the GTD trail for nearly four years and wasted so much time in the first two and half, experimenting and tweaking my system instead of getting things done!
Steve
Tom Shannon
Registered
TesTeq;51165 said:
He forgot to mention that its fun.
Having said that, my experience is that the software rarely adds complexity. People do. Sometimes software offers features that aren't necessary but you don't actually have to use them. Ninety nine percent of the time if the person implementing the system has his or her head on straight, very complex software can easily be used in a very simple, straight forward way.
Looking at many of the posts to this group and others over the years I'd say more often than not, its the person that's making things unnecessarily complicated and that goes for people using anything from paper to IBM's Big Blue. Just a little dose of common sense usually can go a long way.
Tom S.
richard.watson
Registered
A friend of mine overcomplicated Notepad. He's very smart and has a lot of things on the go at the same time, so he had a to-do directory-of-directories of text files! Worked for him. I bought him the GTD book and now he uses mail primarily. Works for him and it's a lot simpler.
One big GTD-app problem is that there is enough fuzziness in how you should implement it. This is great because you can just follow the principles in your own way, but it also allows so many interpretations.
Problem #2 is that people are different. So your "simple" is not my "simple". Then a developer follows the workflow exactly and they get comments about "too rigid". I saw one reviewer say a product was not "GTD" because it had search and GTD people obviously don't need search. Another refuses to use an app without search. That's okay, it just means they'll use different applications.
One big GTD-app problem is that there is enough fuzziness in how you should implement it. This is great because you can just follow the principles in your own way, but it also allows so many interpretations.
Problem #2 is that people are different. So your "simple" is not my "simple". Then a developer follows the workflow exactly and they get comments about "too rigid". I saw one reviewer say a product was not "GTD" because it had search and GTD people obviously don't need search. Another refuses to use an app without search. That's okay, it just means they'll use different applications.
M
mochant
Guest
I've found it's a combination of factors
As Richard just wrote, it's quite possible to complicate even the simplest bit of software (or paper) which is a human issue. A number of years ago, an adviser to my company (who's become a trusted sounding board since) told me that he believed there were two kinds of people in the world: simplifiers and complexifiers. I've come to believe that and also feel that part of my GTD journey has been to find balance along that axis (I'm a born complexifier).
That said, there are, in fact, complex applications that I've evauated and run away from because they take something that is, at its essence, simple and make it much more complex than it needs to be. FWIW, my current choice is iGTD on the Mac because it is a simple app for managing my projects and NAs. It has a lot of extra bells and whistles for automation that I suppose are very nice if you're into that but they do not intrude on what is an elegantly simple UI that works very nicely.
I've also been using a set of Levenger notebooks to organize my reference materials and as capture devices for my various consulting and writing projects. The ease with which I can modify their contents won me over as did their ability to be folded completely over (unlike a hard bound journal or binder).
I'm pretty happy with the simplicity level I've achieved but continue to look for ways to refine the balance between maintaining the system and working it.
As Richard just wrote, it's quite possible to complicate even the simplest bit of software (or paper) which is a human issue. A number of years ago, an adviser to my company (who's become a trusted sounding board since) told me that he believed there were two kinds of people in the world: simplifiers and complexifiers. I've come to believe that and also feel that part of my GTD journey has been to find balance along that axis (I'm a born complexifier).
That said, there are, in fact, complex applications that I've evauated and run away from because they take something that is, at its essence, simple and make it much more complex than it needs to be. FWIW, my current choice is iGTD on the Mac because it is a simple app for managing my projects and NAs. It has a lot of extra bells and whistles for automation that I suppose are very nice if you're into that but they do not intrude on what is an elegantly simple UI that works very nicely.
I've also been using a set of Levenger notebooks to organize my reference materials and as capture devices for my various consulting and writing projects. The ease with which I can modify their contents won me over as did their ability to be folded completely over (unlike a hard bound journal or binder).
I'm pretty happy with the simplicity level I've achieved but continue to look for ways to refine the balance between maintaining the system and working it.
Despite being an ex-software developer (or perhaps that should read "software ex-developer"!), and a total geek, I've stuck with paper.
The reason? I've never found a software app that (1) feels GTD enough for me, and (2) there's a learning curve that I'm not willing to climb, at least not until I've a mind like water.
Your mileage may vary, but for flexibility, simplicity, and reliability, nothing, to me, beats paper.
Just my $0.02.
The reason? I've never found a software app that (1) feels GTD enough for me, and (2) there's a learning curve that I'm not willing to climb, at least not until I've a mind like water.
Your mileage may vary, but for flexibility, simplicity, and reliability, nothing, to me, beats paper.
Just my $0.02.
GTD is not Project Management
I've been on the GTD trail for 15 years, with varying degrees of success - ironically, my highest degree of success was in the mid 90's with the Time Design system. Software does promote complexity because it has more functionality. A paper list does nothing but hold written notes. It encourages simplicity.
From personal experience and this forum have convinced me that most of the complexity with which people struggle, on paper or on software, comes from trying to do Project Management within the GTD system. That doesn't work. PM is very complex and requires a lot more resources than lists of next actions. It requires precedence relationships and critical path analysis. GTD helps do projects, but the emphasis is on atomic actions, not the big picture. GTD provides lists of NA's organized by context and readily available and current, but there is no inherent relationship between lists, or actions, in a GTD system.
At the GTD seminar I attended people kept pushing DA for PALM software recommendations to manage this and that (usually PM type activities). DA help firm. He uses PALM straight out of the box; NA list, contacts, calendar and notes. The goal is to keep you focused on executing NAs and to avoid distractions of with maintaining the system.
I could be completely wrong, of course. I currently struggling to get back into GTD after a 2+ year absence. Feel free to suggest corrections.
I've been on the GTD trail for 15 years, with varying degrees of success - ironically, my highest degree of success was in the mid 90's with the Time Design system. Software does promote complexity because it has more functionality. A paper list does nothing but hold written notes. It encourages simplicity.
From personal experience and this forum have convinced me that most of the complexity with which people struggle, on paper or on software, comes from trying to do Project Management within the GTD system. That doesn't work. PM is very complex and requires a lot more resources than lists of next actions. It requires precedence relationships and critical path analysis. GTD helps do projects, but the emphasis is on atomic actions, not the big picture. GTD provides lists of NA's organized by context and readily available and current, but there is no inherent relationship between lists, or actions, in a GTD system.
At the GTD seminar I attended people kept pushing DA for PALM software recommendations to manage this and that (usually PM type activities). DA help firm. He uses PALM straight out of the box; NA list, contacts, calendar and notes. The goal is to keep you focused on executing NAs and to avoid distractions of with maintaining the system.
I could be completely wrong, of course. I currently struggling to get back into GTD after a 2+ year absence. Feel free to suggest corrections.
J
JonathanBallinger
Guest
I'm completely the opposite. I've been around computers my whole life but I have not found anything I was personally comfortable with. In the end I wrote a tool for myself which I use on my Pocket PC.
I have tried the paper route and for me that didn't work because I lost the bits of paper. A system is only useful if it's all there, and losing a piece of paper reduced my mental trust in the system as a whole as it was all of a sudden incomplete.
If I lost my Pocket PC I would have that feeling only temporarily as whenever I sync at night, my nActionr file is backed up by Missing Sync.
What's vitally important for any one person is to find something that they can live with. That could be paper, or it could be a laptop they carry around with them all the time or it could be their PDA-capable mobile phone. Unless they can live with it its not going to get used, no matter how simple or complicated it is.
I have tried the paper route and for me that didn't work because I lost the bits of paper. A system is only useful if it's all there, and losing a piece of paper reduced my mental trust in the system as a whole as it was all of a sudden incomplete.
If I lost my Pocket PC I would have that feeling only temporarily as whenever I sync at night, my nActionr file is backed up by Missing Sync.
What's vitally important for any one person is to find something that they can live with. That could be paper, or it could be a laptop they carry around with them all the time or it could be their PDA-capable mobile phone. Unless they can live with it its not going to get used, no matter how simple or complicated it is.
Tom Shannon
Registered
unstuffed;51178 said:
Software rarely "feels" GTD anymore than paper does. If its flexible, it can be made to be so in the same way that you might organize a paper notebook. As someone pointed out above, this flexibility is necessary. What "feels" GTD for one person might be a rigid interpretation that doesn't feel right to another. In fact, I'm guessing it won't feel right to more people than not.
I do sympathize with the learning curve comment, though. Sometimes it can be a pain to sift through the features to find the ones you need. Often you find that you are only using about 10% of what the software can do. As I said, I personally kind of like messing around with that kind of thing so it isn't a big deal for me.
Tom S.
Todd V
Registered
re: GTD Apps & The Question of Complexity
The main disadvantage I think many GTD apps have is that they focus on organizing information rather than helping users process it in accordance with the GTD workflow. I ended up designing my own GTD app for the mac as a result of my own frustrations. The advantage it affords me and others is that it focuses more on "process" and coaching users through GTD. Check out the sub-section in the backstory I wrote about it here called "The Downside of Lists and the Power of One At-A-Time."
The RSD Backstory
The main disadvantage I think many GTD apps have is that they focus on organizing information rather than helping users process it in accordance with the GTD workflow. I ended up designing my own GTD app for the mac as a result of my own frustrations. The advantage it affords me and others is that it focuses more on "process" and coaching users through GTD. Check out the sub-section in the backstory I wrote about it here called "The Downside of Lists and the Power of One At-A-Time."
The RSD Backstory
12hourhalfday
Registered
I definitely agree that a lot of the software applications add more complexity then required being that they are not usually portable and they simply add to systems rather then streamline them.
I think for something to be an enhancement it has to add functionality that will bring steps together into a synergistic(Sp?) whole rather then add more crap on top of existing crap. I definitely don't need 5 more steps added to a one step process just because it helps me pick a next action.
I do enjoy a lot of non-software developments that assist with GTD. Examples:
1. The moleskine notebooks
2. Hipster PDAs
3. DIY planner
These either add things systems can be applied to or are systems implementing GTD in their own right.
P.S. my favorite hipster mod is the hipster shuffle.
I think for something to be an enhancement it has to add functionality that will bring steps together into a synergistic(Sp?) whole rather then add more crap on top of existing crap. I definitely don't need 5 more steps added to a one step process just because it helps me pick a next action.
I do enjoy a lot of non-software developments that assist with GTD. Examples:
1. The moleskine notebooks
2. Hipster PDAs
3. DIY planner
These either add things systems can be applied to or are systems implementing GTD in their own right.
P.S. my favorite hipster mod is the hipster shuffle.
J
JonathanBallinger
Guest
http://www.43folders.com/2004/09/03/introducing-the-hipster-pda/
It's a system centred around bulldog clips and 5x3 cards. I tried it and, to be fair, it was by far my favourite paper based method.
It's a system centred around bulldog clips and 5x3 cards. I tried it and, to be fair, it was by far my favourite paper based method.
12hourhalfday
Registered
Barb;51215 said:
It is a handful of index cards held together with a binder clip.
It is the best capture tool I have found.tarheel810
Registered
I think that for me the essence of this issue goes back to what DA said in the book that whatever system you use must be one that you will use all the time. I have used low tech in the past and have used a PPC for several years now. I personally have had much greater success with the PPC than I ever did with a paper-based system. For me the GTD methodology provided me with a better means of utilizing my PPC that I already used, rather than the other way around. For those who are more comfortable with paper, stick with what you are going to use. No system, high or low tech, is going to help you implement if you are not comfortable with it.
That said, I do try to keep my electronic system as simple as possible. I use Pocket Informant or Agenda Fusion (I am a registered user of both and interchange depending on my moods) for my calendar and task/NA lists, I use Phatnotes for note taking, and then use PocketBreeze on the today screen to show it all at a glance. Everything is then synced back to Outlook where I am currently using the GTD addon (although I am not sure how much longer I will continue). I have looked at other possibilities in the past such as PocketThinker, but felt that adding additional or different software would simply complicate my system. For someone else, that may be the perfect solution. It all comes down to the fact that it is your system, there is no right or wrong system, use what works for you.
That said, I do try to keep my electronic system as simple as possible. I use Pocket Informant or Agenda Fusion (I am a registered user of both and interchange depending on my moods) for my calendar and task/NA lists, I use Phatnotes for note taking, and then use PocketBreeze on the today screen to show it all at a glance. Everything is then synced back to Outlook where I am currently using the GTD addon (although I am not sure how much longer I will continue). I have looked at other possibilities in the past such as PocketThinker, but felt that adding additional or different software would simply complicate my system. For someone else, that may be the perfect solution. It all comes down to the fact that it is your system, there is no right or wrong system, use what works for you.
In spite of the fact that I was more successful with GTD on paper, I could not go back. In the mid 90's I could keep it all in a TimeDesign book. Today the bulk of my tasks and communications arrive electronically it's just not feasible to copy it all to a paper system.
My big issue now is the multitude of electronic of poorly integrated channels, work email, personal email Outlook tasks, Palm tasks etc. I would love to sync my work email with my personal system, but I don't want to upload my personal life to the Exchange server. Data capture just isn't good on a hand held. There is nothing better than a notepad and a pencil, but it isn't integrated into an electronic system. A full keyboard is great, but not portable.
I'm seriously considering trying an electronic notepad like http://www.acecad.com.tw/dml2.html for data capture. Has anyone used one of these, or something similar? If only it had a small screen and ran a GTD interface it would be the ultimate tool.
My big issue now is the multitude of electronic of poorly integrated channels, work email, personal email Outlook tasks, Palm tasks etc. I would love to sync my work email with my personal system, but I don't want to upload my personal life to the Exchange server. Data capture just isn't good on a hand held. There is nothing better than a notepad and a pencil, but it isn't integrated into an electronic system. A full keyboard is great, but not portable.
I'm seriously considering trying an electronic notepad like http://www.acecad.com.tw/dml2.html for data capture. Has anyone used one of these, or something similar? If only it had a small screen and ran a GTD interface it would be the ultimate tool.
Tom Shannon
Registered
jrdouce;51244 said:
Is the screen of a Pocket PC too small? I use what's called "transcriber mode" on mine to input data. Its a pretty good and pretty fast handwriting recognition input mode.
I know this is heresy to some but I've pretty much found that the best way to keep all of my electronic input synchronized is to use MS Office. Everything is pretty well integrated, now. The Pocket PC is a portable device that is as good as any Palm you'll find and, of course, its fully compatible with Outlook almost without compromise. OneNote has PPC version, too. I know I sound like a darned MS shill but, relatively speaking, it makes for a pretty comprehensive system depending upon what you want to do.
In terms of keeping data separate, there's no reason why you can't keep your work email on an Exchange server and use gmail (web interface or pop mail) at home. The mail can certainly be collected and kept in different ost files (the pop mail being kept locally). OneNote is a pretty good, simple organizer which would certainly allow you to keep work notebooks on a portable USB drive while keeping personal notebooks at home.
Tom S.
severance1970
Registered
Bingo. Flat lists of Next Actions, a separate list of Projects, and a calendar really don't require anything specialized for a particular system. The odds that a developer's idea of proper GTD buckets will map to yours or mine are probably much smaller than is usually assumed when shopping for "solutions." A calendar and a generic list manager, whether paper or electronic, will tend to incur less overhead than GTD apps that are implicitly project management oriented, since it's faster and easier to work with self-defined buckets.jrdouce;51182 said:
12hourhalfday
Registered
Gameboy70;51305 said:
Very well said! Progressive lists can be complicated enough. Add 50 sublists and it is easy to get confused.
R
rbhailey
Guest
I am having somewhat of the same issue with getting the right system tools. I have used a PPC for a couple of years now and have really just caught on to the "simple is best" strategy. I am also using the note taker wallet for some capture items. Capture seems to the most challenging for me now. I cannot choose the one note taking tool and stick with it. I figure it will take me a few more months to refine. I am still excited by my progress so far.