Lifehack: Is GTD generally too difficult for people to use?

[bcmyers2112]

Great to see we're all getting along really well with each other here.

Actually, it was meant as a joke. Intended to be more self-deprecating than anything else. I thought if I went any further I'd be at risk of preaching to the converted and simply regurgitating what DA has already said better than I could. I guess that didn't come through. I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[bcmyers2112]

I see! Is that how many of you see GTD? That explains a lot!

I hope you're not generalizing about what other people think based on what I said. I can only speak for myself.

I confess I had never even thought of that. Self-improvement! Nothing wrong with that at all, just that I had never thought of GTD in that way.

I'm not sure what you think I meant, and I wonder if you're reading too much into my use of the term. I was simply comparing GTD to other things people can do benefit themselves, like exercising and adopting good eating habits, but often don't. A weight loss plan won't change your habits for you, and neither will GTD. Both can suggest habits which are good for you, but you have to be willing to do the hard work. If you choose not to do so, it doesn't logically follow that the plan or program failed you.

 

[AJS]

GTD in it's purest form isn't really that complicated. If you look at what DA actually recommends it's simple lists for day to day activity. Stuff like projects, and higher horizons are ideally kept on separate lists or documents for review when needed. So even if I wanted to implement it on a bare bones task manager like Any.do it's very doable. Yes it's true that Any.do separates tasks by today/tomorrow/upcoming/someday rather than contexts, but in the digital format do you really need any more contexts than that?

 

[Folke]

GTD in it's purest form isn't really that complicated. If you look at what DA actually recommends it's simple lists for day to day activity. Stuff like projects, and higher horizons are ideally kept on separate lists or documents for review when needed.

That is my understanding as well. And that's definitely how you do it on paper. And it has been the approximate foundation for what I have been doing since the 80's - I know it works and I like it.

I got little "handicapped", though, when I moved from paper to computer in the late 90's. Although computers have a lot of potential, computer software features are by necessity more rigid than your personal handwriting, so I had to struggle for a few years (with different software and settings and workarounds) to get fully back on track AND to get some of the extra real power that I expected from the computerization.

What I wanted (and still have not been able to completely get) from a GTD computer app is a bit more than just the basic GTD lists. I also wanted to include:

• hierarchy/future: all concrete future actions and projects that I can foresee, as tentative "placeholders" or as more definitive steps (but without other reference details), within an overall concrete higher level structure (objectives or AoFs etc.)
• cross-reference: being able to see things from different angles in different situations (creative review, verifying review, task selection etc)
• tagging/filtering: speedy and accurate narrowing down of relevant task selection options for virtually any type of realistic situation

 

[kathryn]

Why do some people have such long lists, anyway? We are all limited to our 24 hours a day, so what makes some people end up with so many things? I think some of the possible answers are:

- a more fragmented life - many small things, not so many time consuming things
- a desire for depth and detail, and a need to remember every detail (anxiety about forgetting)
- a long-range and/or strategic mindset

I think this is particularly insightful. Thank you!

 

[bcmyers2112]

BTW, priority as part of the for criteria is defined by the contents of youf HOFs.

Cpu_Modern, I don't know if my earlier response offended you -- I hadn't considered it until cwoodgold chimed in. I'm more concerned with how you perceived it than anyone else, though.

It really was meant as a self-deprecating joke, but having re-read it I can see how it might have come off as combative. If it did, I do apologize.

The thing is, I'm glad you chimed in because your remark helped me through a stumbling block on the road to re-booting my GTD practice. I had processed a chunk of my backlog but something about the lists felt wrong. I've learned to listen to those gut feelings. I looked over the lists and realized that even though my next actions really were next actions, they weren't necessarily the best next actions for achieving the intended outcomes. I realized that even though I haven't yet addressed the horizons of focus beyond the 10,000 ft level I know some of my roles pretty well. So I reviewed my lists and got rid of stuff that just wasn't consistent with some of those roles, and at the same time I also reviewed my lists for anything that didn't feel "real." I began to feel better about the lists. They're still incomplete, but I'm confident for now the projects I have listed belong in that list, and the same with my next actions.

Kelly Forrister has written articles about why some people's lists repel rather than attract them. I think that's been the achilles heel in my prior attempts at GTD. There are many reasons why one's lists may repel them but I think for me, first and foremost it's projects that I feel no commitment about. I tend to have this idea that if something could be done, it should be done and it should go in my active projects and NAs lists. Well... no. No, that's not the way to do it.

Ha! I just realized I'm learning to say "no"... to myself. How amusing. At least to me.

So, y'know... thanks, Cpu_Modern. Your remark nudged me in the right direction.

 

[Folke]

... why some people's lists repel rather than attract them. I think that's been the achilles heel in my prior attempts at GTD.

bcmyers, please forgive me if what I am going to say now sounds disputatious, but I assure you I am saying it with the most helpful intent possible. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but this is in line with my somewhat hasty inference earlier about your seeing GTD as a general self-improvement regimen:

I would say that this particular achilles heel (repellent lists) affects more than just GTD. It would affect any task management methodology; even without an explicit methodology it would affect any other kind of action list; and even without lists it would apply to your mind and the choices you make - the attraction and repulsion you feel to towards doing different things. The dichotomy between "heart" and "mind" is an age-old way of polarizing the various conflicting emotions, insights, habits and intuition that we have. One of the best and most recent books on this is Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahnemann - maybe you would like it (I enjoyed it a lot).

For someone (like me) who regards GTD as just one (the best) of many alternative action management methodologies, this kind of list repulsion would belong mainly outside GTD as such, but ... (and this is where I might be reading to much into what you have been saying earlier) ... perhaps to you GTD represents a more all-encompassing philosophy of life - about how to be a happy and successful human being. That's not wrong, either. DA does touch upon a lot of stuff and tries to put everything in a larger perspective.

 

[theilluminated]

I have to ask you Folke, how can you not see it as a self-improvement regimen? It may not have the touchy feely spiritual kind, but ultimately it is about improving productivity and an individuals life. Productivity for me is about getting as much doen possible with the least hassle (or no hassle), this is an obvious improvement to a persons life. I don't want to rant more, but I just really have a big issue seeing them as separate instead of different sides on a dice.

 

[cwoodgold]

I apologize if I offended anyone.

Likewise.

 

[cwoodgold]

By the way: what's an HOF?

"Horizon of focus". It came to me about an hour after I posted the question.

 

[bcmyers2112]

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree

You're definitely barking up the wrong tree.

(and this is where I might be reading to much into what you have been saying earlier)

You're reading too much into it. Way too much.

 

[Folke]

I have to ask you Folke, how can you not see it as a self-improvement regimen?

For me it is primarily a matter of labeling (characterization), and what we compare it with, not about denying the fact that it can improve your life. Football can be a hobby, and for some can be the main focus of their lives, for their self-improvement and quality of life. Does that make football and GTD "competitors" in the "self-improvement market"? They do compete, of course, in a similar sense that cars and computers both compete for the consumers' money and material comfort, but the question is how we label it and what implications we draw from those labels.

If GTD is labeled as a self-improvement regimen, what would its competitors be? Meditation? Sport? Religion/philosophy? Anger management? Sex and procreation? Politics? Leadership?

I would classify GTD as an action management methodology. Its main class of competitors would be the various time planning methodologies, the names of which I cannot recall. Closer rivals (or possible complements) are the methodologies of Mark Forster and Stephen Covey, just to mention a few.

So from this point of view, i.e. using these two types of definition, is GTD simple or not? As a self-improvement regimen, is it simpler to classify actions by Context (etc etc) than to join a swimming club? As an action management methodology, is it simpler than just picking a date instead?

The way I see it, GTD and time planning are about equally "simple" - GTD definitely is no simpler. The merits of GTD lie mainly in its flexibility for sudden changes and interruptions. Therefore, time planning does not work for me, but it seems to work just fine for those with a very stable situation and stable emotions (no strong variations in attraction or repulsion to certain types of tasks at different moments.)

 

[theilluminated]

I liked reading your post Folke, here's my viewpoint.

Self-improvement, or perhaps better said; things that make my life better, is not a competition in most ways. Within certain categories that would be true, but football and GTD is not close in that regard.

If I were to brainstorm where the central point would be: "Things That Improve My Life", I would have sub-categories like "Social", "Relationships", "Health", "Job", "Systems", "Spirituality", etc. In my world GTD would not compete with any of the others, but rather facilitate and organize the others.

I can relate to how you view it as an action management methodology (which is what I also would still view it inside my self-improvement category), but I think that the way people see it differently may be due to life circumstances. I easily admit that I have more than a few areas of my life out of whack currently, and see GTD as a way to help me with those. If I had most of them in order and automated (either by systems or habit), my relationship to GTD would certainly be viewed differently (as it has been in my past).

But maybe the more important question would be; is it harmful to GTD that people view it that differently? I wouldn't doubt that the answer would be "yes" on the Internet simply because self improvement (what I tend to see) has a negative connotation to it. Maybe the same can also be said for productivity though.

Maybe the most important question is; Is it really that important to argue over the meaning when it ultimately depends on the person viewing it?

 

[bcmyers2112]

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but this is in line with my somewhat hasty inference earlier about your seeing GTD as a general self-improvement regimen:

If you acknowledge that your initial inference was too hasty (which it was), why would you continue with this line of thought even after I've explained to you that your inference was incorrect?

I would say that this particular achilles heel (repellent lists) affects more than just GTD. It would affect any task management methodology; even without an explicit methodology it would affect any other kind of action list; and even without lists it would apply to your mind and the choices you make - the attraction and repulsion you feel to towards doing different things.

Yeah, I know that. But we're discussing GTD here, in a public forum devoted to GTD. I'm not going to discuss my entire personal life and innermost thoughts in a public forum with people I don't know, for cryin' out loud. I'm going to limit my comments to things relevant to GTD.

For someone (like me) who regards GTD as just one (the best) of many alternative action management methodologies,

That's how I regard it as well. I already explained to you what I meant by comparing GTD to self-improvement programs like diets and exercise plans. What they have in common is that they suggest the adoption of specific habits in order to achieve a benefit. That's all I meant, and again: I already explained that.

this kind of list repulsion would belong mainly outside GTD as such, but ...

I disagree that this issue "would belong mainly outside of GTD". In fact, Kelly Forrister has written about GTD lists that repel rather than attract. It's a problem a lot of GTD'ers run into, and it can be solved by applying GTD principles. Often it's an issue of better clarifying next actions, and also clarifying goals and ultimately one's purpose in life by looking at things from the higher-level horizons of focus.

(and this is where I might be reading to much into what you have been saying earlier) ... perhaps to you GTD represents a more all-encompassing philosophy of life - about how to be a happy and successful human being.

You are definitely reading too much into it. I don't regard GTD in that fashion, and I would ask you to please stop speculating about what I think.

 

[bcmyers2112]

I would say that this particular achilles heel (repellent lists) affects more than just GTD. It would affect any task management methodology; even without an explicit methodology it would affect any other kind of action list; and even without lists it would apply to your mind and the choices you make - the attraction and repulsion you feel to towards doing different things.

Yeah, of course. But I'm not going to discuss my innermost thoughts and feelings in a public forum. This forum is about GTD and I'm going to limit my comments to things that are relevant to GTD.

What's funny about this is that nothing you put in your lists is a "GTD issue" per se (unless you have a project like "Get better at GTD"). Yet applying GTD principles can be instrumental in achieving desired outcomes in the most effective way possible. If one's lists repel rather than attract, it may simply be an issue of better clarifying projects and next actions, or better clarifying one's goals and one's purpose in life using the horizons of focus model.

Kelly Forrister has written about this issue. Try Googling "Kelly Forrister," "attract," and "repel."

For someone (like me) who regards GTD as just one (the best) of many alternative action management methodologies,

That's mainly how I regard it. I never said otherwise.

this kind of list repulsion would belong mainly outside GTD as such, but ...

Yet applying GTD principles can be instrumental in solving the problem. Not only has Kelly Forrister written about that, but I can personally attest to it.

(and this is where I might be reading to much into what you have been saying earlier) ...
perhaps to you GTD represents a more all-encompassing philosophy of life - about how to be a happy and successful human being.

You are definitely reading too much into it. I already explained to you what I meant by comparing GTD to "self improvement" programs like diets and exercise plans. What GTD has in common with them is that GTD suggests the adoption of certain habits to achieve a benefit. The point being that people who know better will eat poorly, fail to exercise, drink too much, smoke, etc. If someone gives up on GTD that isn't proof that GTD is unsustainable. That was all I meant, and I thought I made that clear in a prior post.

Please stop trying to read my mind, and please stop speculating about what I think. Thanks.

 

[Folke]

@theilluminated

I think the value of "arguing" in a forum like this one lies mainly in its potential for us to help each other and ourselves to gain new or better insights. In the end we are all on our own and do what we want. But the distinction we are now discussing could well be a contributing cause for GTD's current image, and might perhaps affect Davidco's marketing effort in the future. Positioning is always key - who or what are we "pitching" against? (And implicitly comparing with?)

I think we understand each other perfectly and essentially agree. To use your terminology (the things you refer to as sub-categories) I would say that GTD (or rather "systematic action management" in any of its forms) could well be counted as one of all these "sub-categories", i.e. things that can benefit your overall life quality. And, as you say, they are not competing or mutually exclusive ALTERNATIVES to each other, but they can all compete for your attention, trust, faith and effort - and they can also influence each other synergically. For example, physical exercise is generally held to increase your calm and mental focus and progress in other areas ("sub-categories"). And good action management can benefit the other areas. And so can job and income, and so on.

@bcmyers - don't worry, this discussion is not about you in any way. You can call it philosophy or marketing strategy or calling a spade a spade, whatever you fancy.

 

[bcmyers2112]

@bcmyers - don't worry, this discussion is not about you in any way. You can call it philosophy or marketing strategy or calling a spade a spade, whatever you fancy.

I never said your discussion with theilluminated was about me. I was addressing comments you made to me and about me, which I quoted.

 

[bcmyers2112]

@bcmyers - don't worry, this discussion is not about you in any way. You can call it philosophy or marketing strategy or calling a spade a spade, whatever you fancy.

No, Folke. I don't think this entire discussion is about me. I was addressing some wildly inaccurate assumptions and speculations that were clearly about me, in a post that was explicitly addressed to me. See below for excerpts from your post and my responses.

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but this is in line with my somewhat hasty inference earlier about your seeing GTD as a general self-improvement regimen:

If you acknowledge that your inference was hasty, why would you continue to write along this line of thought?

I thought I explained pretty clearly what I meant when I compared GTD with other "self improvement" programs. GTD is not a diet. It's not an exercise plan. But all three do have one thing in common: they suggest the adoption of certain habits to produce a benefit.

My point was that many people know they should eat healthier, but don't. Does that necessarily prove that diet and nutrition are at fault? So, going back to the original topic, I wonder if some people find GTD too difficult because they would rather avoid change, even if that change may be positive.

That's all I meant.

I would say that this particular achilles heel (repellent lists) affects more than just GTD.

Yes, I agree. But we're discussing GTD in a forum devoted to GTD, so I'm only going to discuss the aspects of this issue that are relevant to GTD.

GTD can be instrumental in solving the problem. Often it's an issue of better clarifying the desired outcome -- i.e. the project -- and/or the next action(s) needed to achieve that outcome. Or it can be an issue of better clarifying one's goals and life's purpose using the horizons of focus model.

If you think about it, depending on how you look at it nothing you put in your GTD lists is necessarily a "GTD issue" (unless you have a project like "Get better at GTD"). Yet one can use GTD to facilitate successful outcomes, and therefore issues about one's practice of GTD are relevant to the discussion.

For someone (like me) who regards GTD as just one (the best) of many alternative action management methodologies,

That's mainly how I regard it.

this kind of list repulsion would belong mainly outside GTD as such, but ...

No, it really doesn't. Ultimately if your lists repel you it's because you haven't clarified something on some level. Clarifying desired outcomes, goals, and one's life's purpose are all integral to the GTD methodology.

(and this is where I might be reading to much into what you have been saying earlier) ...

Yeah, you are definitely reading way too much into it.

perhaps to you GTD represents a more all-encompassing philosophy of life - about how to be a happy and successful human being.

Please stop trying to read my mind, Folke. If you want to know what I think, ask me. And please don't imply that I think this entire discussion is about me when I'm only responding to remarks you made that were either explicitly about me or were otherwise clearly addressed to me directly. Thanks.

 

[Folke]

@bcmyers,

Did you notice that @theilluminated had asked me a direct question that I answered? My last couple of posts were a direct response to that, i.e. nothing to do with you.

In general, in this forum, I have often noticed a kind of "ambivalence" about what GTD is fundamentally all about; I have never quite been able to put my finger on it, but it has always disturbed me because many potentially good and clarifying discussions derail simply because different people seem to imply entirely different kinds of things when they say the three magic letters GTD. I do see the mixing of topics and tacit assumptions as a threat to the quality of any debate.

When you first mentioned the term "self-improvement" I suddenly saw a possibility that maybe precisely this was a common alternative interpretation of GTD that might account for some of the differences in what kind of seemingly uncorrelated conclusions different people arrive at in this and other threads. Apparently this was not so for you, but to some extent for @theilluminated.

@bcmyers, in another thread about GTD, where I argued that GTD is particularly good for people with a fluid or turbulent life situation (I was implicitly comparing with time planning), you countered with something like "No, GTD is all about simplicity, for everybody". May I ask, simple compared with what? And in this thread again, a Lifehack article claims something about simplicity. Simplicity for whom to accomplish what, compared with what?

 

[bcmyers2112]

Folke, I'm sure you're a nice person and you mean well but now you've gone and grossly distorted something I said to you in another thread. I am sure it was done unintentionally, but I don't have the time to keep up with this. I think it's better for me and for the forum if I just avoid discussions with you entirely.

To everyone else: I wish I hadn't let my frustrations get the better of me. I apologize for lowering the level of discourse in a forum where said discourse is generally of a very high caliber. I'll endeavor to do better. Thanks.