The Values Thing

[CosmoGTD]

This sounds of interest to me. Is there a particular book/publication you can recommend?

Janice

Isn't it ironic that I am criticizing books that help one to clarify their values by recommending books that help people to clarify their values!

Bucky Fuller was a type of philosopher of technology, engineer, inventor, and all round genius type of guy. Its certainly not for everyone, and is very non-linear.

Thanks to your question, I found some resources online I did not know existed.
He talks about the idea of thinking like a child, and how we were taught to "Never mind what you think, just pay attention". This is a theme he goes back to many times in various works.

Education Automation http://bfi.org/?q=node/401

Books and Articles on line http://bfi.org/taxonomy/term/32

For advanced, here is a transcript of a 42 hour lecture, called " Everything I Know". http://bfi.org/taxonomy/term/34

 

[ADD GTDer]

The "Values" Thing

Isn't it ironic that I am criticizing books that help one to clarify their values by recommending books that help people to clarify their values!...[/QUOTE] I guess it [I]IS[/I] kind... to learning more about Bucky Fuller. Janice

 

[Cikub]

I tried to think about the Values Thing as much as I could, and I came to the conclusion that it is just a mental construct, that may have little to do with the reality of the person's behavior.
As has been said, you ask anyone, "what's you most important value?" and people will say my Family, meanwhile their #1 value is achievement and money, perhaps, as they see their kids 15 minutes a night.
As a matter of fact, I would go far as to say our PROFESSED values often are a smokescreen for our real values, that we try to hide from ourselves due to shame. An example of this is the author of "What Matters Most", who was acting in direct opposition with his "values" for a long time. Busted!
...
Also, much of the so-called values stuff can lead to hypocrisy and denial.
Also, if we take our Values from some type of book, or are influenced by this, then we are betraying our own nature and conscience.

Exactly... you made the point much better than I did.

I tend to agree w/CosmoGTD in the sense that value choices are made intuitively, not consciously.

An example is the father that lists "time with his children" high on his list of values, but always puts work ahead of his kids. What do his actions say he values more, career or kids?

I hate to pick on you guys, because I'm sure that we wouldn't disagree much if we ironed out the language, but I feel there is some very backwards, fatalistic logic presented here that self-proclaimed pedophiles would probably embrace.

The whole point of values exercises is not to obtain values that we don't already have, it's to consciously recognize our (many) existing but conflicting values so that we can focus on the ones that are most important to us.

You seem to be saying that the man who doesn't spend time with his kids should just shrug his shoulders and tell his family "Since I spend so much time at the office, my work is obviously more important to you--so tough luck." That's absurd, of course. If that man sat down and thought about how his actions really compared with how much he really values his family, he would likely make some changes in how he uses his time. Please don't try to tell me that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it.

I read the same kind of responses here when mission statements come up--that they should be abandoned because companies don't follow them to the letter. Unethical companies need mission statements the most!

In short, values and mission statements are behavior goals, not dictionary definitions of our personalities.

C

 

[sonia_simone]

Identifying values is the first step. The second step is developing a way to be conscious of action (maybe tracking time or money spent every day, or some other objective way to look at what you are doing). The third step is to compare the two and see things are matching up.

Without the second and third steps, the value of the first step is considerably diminished.

 

[dal1mdm]

Integrity

Interesting that virtues were once the desirable trait - now its values...

In my opinion its all about integrity. Not just being honest and all that, but the character of one's life. In his excellent book on the topic, Henry Cloud says that we all leave a wake behind us in life. When you look back, what do you see? What would you like the wake to look like in the future?

I'm intrigued by a new Sales Director in our ourganization. He's making classic ego errors and seems blind to how he is perceived. I keep asking myself how he ever managed to become a Director. Its because he's very good at making deals and managing tasks, but he lacks character and its eventually going to eat his lunch.

My book suggestions (to be read alongside one another):
The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis
Lost in the Cosmos by Walker Percy

 

[Rainer Burmeister]

Integrity

Interesting that virtues were once the desirable trait - now its values...
In my opinion its all about integrity. Not just being honest and all that, but the character of one's life.

"Never esteem anything as of advantage to you that will make you break your word or lose your self-respect."
Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180, Roman emperor and stoic philosopher)

 

[dal1mdm]

Further Upstream...

"For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique..."

from "The Abolition of Man" by CS Lewis (1898-1963)

 

[flexiblefine]

Simple and difficult

It's that simple, and that difficult.

And that's how I feel about the whole thing. Understanding my values, knowing myself, whatever we want to call it... it sounds simple, but it isn't.

When I went to a Franklin Planner seminar many years ago, I didn't want to go on a journey of personal discovery in order to learn how to use a planner. My life has changed a lot since then, and now I do want to become more conscious of why I do the things I do. I have a wife and son now, and I want to be a better person for them.

Maybe a good starting point for me is to sit down somewhere quiet with pen and journal and just listen to myself for a while. It has helped me in the past...

 

[kewms]

When I went to a Franklin Planner seminar many years ago, I didn't want to go on a journey of personal discovery in order to learn how to use a planner.

That's probably still a good instinct. Using a planner should be easy -- otherwise you've got the wrong planner.

Voyages of personal discovery can be very difficult. A planner might be helpful along the way, but in exactly the same way that a rope is helpful to a mountain climber. In the end, it isn't the rope that gets you up the mountain.

Katherine

 

[jkgrossi]

You seem to be saying that the man who doesn't spend time with his kids should just shrug his shoulders and tell his family "Since I spend so much time at the office, my work is obviously more important to you--so tough luck." That's absurd, of course. If that man sat down and thought about how his actions really compared with how much he really values his family, he would likely make some changes in how he uses his time. Please don't try to tell me that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it.
C

No, what I'm saying is that actions speak louder than words. What I'm saying is that if a man says that he values time with his kids over his carrer, and his actions are not congruent with that, he truly doesn't value his career more than his kids.

I know many people personally who, when going through a values exercise, listed time with their family as one of their top three values (and subsequently, higher than career). Yet, most of these same individuals rarely have dinner with their family, and often miss events in lieu of working late.

So, by sheer observation, one can only conclude that these people place career ahead of family, even though conceptually they say differently. How can it be otherwise?

I won't try to tell you that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it, because I have know way of knowing if that is true or false. Without sufficient data to support that conclusion, we can only speak from our own experiences and observations. What I've experienced and observed indicates that what individuals value conceptually is often very different than their actual values when tested.

 

[CosmoGTD]

I still say that professed values, and actual values, often are not the same. Many times, they are close to being opposites.

I know some folks who profess religious values constantly, but if you cross them, they will tear you a new _____.
So when someone tells me their values...well lets just say I would prefer to watch their behavior over time, instead.

 

[Cikub]

So, by sheer observation, one can only conclude that these people place career ahead of family, even though conceptually they say differently. How can it be otherwise?
...
What I've experienced and observed indicates that what individuals value conceptually is often very different than their actual values when tested.

I think that's my point exactly. The purpose of going through a values exercise is to come to the realizaton that there is a disconnect between what they think they value and what they are valuing by their actions. There must be *some* reason that these people put family at the top of the list--and I doubt it's because its socially expected (at least not for most of them). The failure of these people is not that they have conflicting values, it's in giving into what's more urgent or what provides the most immediate satisfaction at the cost of long term happiness.

A more extreme example of the exact same problem would be drug addicts. Most addicts don't want to be on drugs but they feel emotionally and physiologically trapped. Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?

C

 

[jkgrossi]

Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?

C

Well, that depends on what they value. I believe that if they truly value freedom they'll fight for it and kick the drug habit. I've seen it happen personally. I feel that those addicts who don't fight and kick the habit value the high they get from the drugs more than freedom from addiction.

I also believe, as I stated, that the only way to truly uncover one's values is to test them. It's easy for me to sit down and write up a list of what I *think* my values are, but how can I know what they are without putting them to the test?

I'll give you an example from my own experience. When going through a values exercise, I once noted financial freedom higher up on my list than security.

If that holds true, then why do I continue to stay at my job (which I feel provides me with a degree of security) rather than strike out on my own?

The *only* answer is that I *truly* value security more than financial freedom, no matter what I wrote down on that piece of paper!

 

[Cikub]

I also believe, as I stated, that the only way to truly uncover one's values is to test them. It's easy for me to sit down and write up a list of what I *think* my values are, but how can I know what they are without putting them to the test?

I think this is the crux of our interesting disagreement. You feel that values are something to be discovered. I feel that values are something to be chosen.

C

 

[monkeyjava]

In working on my higher elevations, I decided that I needed to more clearly define my values. I figured that I should see them at 50,000 feet and be able to trace their influence all the way down to the runway. First I found that my values weren't very well defined. They exist certainly, but I would be hard pressed to define them for you in clear and concise sentences.

As I started to define my values, I discovered that things that were supposedly less important to me were showing up first when I was making runway-level lists. Things that did line up with my values weren't first and foremost in my mind. Suddenly my life, or the chaos that it's in, made more sense.

But why haven't I stayed true to myself? I have values, why don't I just live accordingly? Because I mistook other people's values as my own. Part of me tried to go along with it while another part rebelled. Do we choose our values or discover them? I found myself doing both.

 

[mcogilvie]

There must be *some* reason that these people put family at the top of the list--and I doubt it's because its socially expected (at least not for most of them). The failure of these people is not that they have conflicting values, it's in giving into what's more urgent or what provides the most immediate satisfaction at the cost of long term happiness.

There are lots of reasons why this happens, and I doubt that "not living your values" is the main reason. It's easy to do these values exercises that Franklin-Covey loves so much, but implementing them is another kettle of fish. Furthermore, I don't really think "long-term happiness" is a particularly useful concept. Long-term financial security, yes, but happiness- I would say if you are planning to have it later, you are probably going to miss out on it.

A more extreme example of the exact same problem would be drug addicts. Most addicts don't want to be on drugs but they feel emotionally and physiologically trapped. Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?

References to support this position? Scholarly or practical credentials? One of the problems of this kind of position on values is that it descends too easily into moralizing about the bad choices other people have made. People need to be valued more than values need to be valued. I admire anyone who has raised a teenager to adulthood without having anyone land in jail, independently of what priority they gave it.

 

[jkgrossi]

I think this is the crux of our interesting disagreement. You feel that values are something to be discovered. I feel that values are something to be chosen.

C

Well said... and I agree that's where we disagree!

And honestly, I don't completely disagree with you, because I believe that the true test of one's character is living up to the values that one chooses. In essence, one's ability to walk their talk.