Waiting for an email before I can then email 3 others

[macgrl]

So the email I am waiting for is on my "waiting for list" but how to I record that I need to send out other emails when that email comes in (with the addresses that I need)

One next action of email x and y when email from z comes in? but it isn't an action I can do straight away? Im a little confused (I admit it doesn't take alot )

How do I leave a bookmark that this is what i need to do next?

 

[cfoley]

Sounds like a project plan to me, which belongs in Project Support filing. The specifics of where you put this depend on your system.

I use Toodledo for my lists, and it lets me have a note for each task. I have project tasks and action tasks. Small project plans like this go on my project task's note. That way I don't lose them when I check off a task, and I don't have the overhead of using a paper folder.

If you don't have anywhere for project support material, I suggest you create some space for it, and start with paper and folders until you have used it enough to work out what might work better for you.

 

[ellobogrande]

Be cautious about overplanning

The example you gave is extremely simple; don't complicate it by overthinking and overplanning.

Your action lists contain bookmarks; right now that @Waiting For e-mail is your bookmark. You're simply waiting to see what shows up. Perhaps the response you get might make that predicted future action null and void so don't track that in your system. Your mind will connect the dots when you get a response and your weekly reviews will keep you on track.

I once heard D.A. say on video that if you plan beyond your next physical action chances are you're overplanning.

 

[macgrl]

Thanks for your reply ellobogrande. You are so right! I have a bad habit of over complicating things. To be honest I think that a few of the actions that I have in next action lists should be in project support. With some although they are an independent action I don't want to do them until after I have done another action - but I have them all listed as next actions. I am thinking that maybe I should have them in project support with the actual next thing I want to do on the next action list, which I suppose should be "look at plan for x" from which I can get the next action

my real life example is is this - I have a research paper to submit and am in the process of doing some initial reading.

I use omnifocus btw

Under the project heading "paper" in the folder "Phd" I have these actions listed

a) read in re- brisanoe
b) Go through those 12 or so questions to be answered in blue note book
c) look at the notes / feedback from work submitted and plan
d) Look at the supervisor report sheet of early march and plan
e) Look at those pink issues in the JK/JY/GRL meeting notes - there are only a couple

I have chosen this order as this is the most logical way to go through what I want to do. I guess this means that b)-e) aren't really next actions at all and need to go into project support

Really I suppose I should get rid of b) to e) and put them in project support? and just have a) as the hard next action that I need to do. Then on completing that look at project support and and move b) to the next actions list?

From doing a) there will be more actions (things to read) but these are not something that has to be done before b)

I am thinking that I am maybe planning in the next actions list (not good) and also that I am also not breaking this whole thing down into more elements / projects instead I am looking at it as one big things

 

[vic_lh]

I don't use omnifocus, so sorry if I don't understand your problem. From what you say, there might be two different obstacles present, in my understanding:

1) You have tasks depending-on-tasks. This seems to be the case with b), not so sure about e). Recommended practice: take them out of your lists until you have completed the tasks they depend upon. It is a waste of energy having them in your face every time you review your action lists while they are not really actionable yet.

2) You have independent tasks out of a whole range of things that you can/want to do. Maybe e), if it is not dependent on d). Recommended practice: depends on your urge to finish the project, your energy... One can have more than one next action for a project in the na list, as long as they are really the actual next action, the thing that has to happen next, each of them referred to the different 'fronts' of a huge project. Using GTD nomenclature, I guess 1) would be sequences and 2) components or priorities.

Sorry if I misunderstood. Good luck with your paper.

 

[macgrl]

Thank you very much for your reply. You are right about having them in my face each time I have a look - it's exhausting ! What I have done is to take them all off my action list except for (a). I have then put them into a word document called "initial research plan" this is now the project plan support materials and contains b) to e) and also other notes and ideas.

Even though technically (b) could be done at any time - before a, after c, in my head I wanted to do (a) first so in many ways b,c,d weren't really next actions at all as I didn't want to do them before (a) and so (a) had to be completed first - making (a) the only real next action followed by more planning

So all I have in my next actions under the project "paper" are (a). When that is done I will probably go on to (b) etc but that may change depending on what comes out of (a). If I don't go onto (b) I can do a bit more planning to decide what my next action is in order to move the project on. I will still have a bookmark for it as I have a project on my projects list - "paper"

I am thinking though that with a project being something that requires more than one action to complete that I may have to break the "paper" project down into smaller projects.

It's amazing how complex it can get when you start to really think about it

How do people organise projects that are part of a bigger project? sub projects? next actions for each one under one big project and then other things in project support materials?

 

[Oogiem]

How do people organise projects that are part of a bigger project? sub projects? next actions for each one under one big project and then other things in project support materials?

I make every independent sub-project it's own separate project. Sub projects get too complex to manage at weekly review. It's not uncommon for a "project" of mine to generate 5-10 projects in the GTD sense. That is one reason processing takes me such a long time and why inbox 0 is so hard for me to achieve. A single 3 word note scribbled on my notepad might turn into 8 projects spanning several years once I really process it.

 

[macgrl]

Hello oogiem,

Thanks for your reply. How do you link the the projects? Do you keep them in the same folder? or do you treat them as independent projects? Do you find it hard to plan and keep materials for many projects?

What worries me is that I won't join up all the little projects that are part of a bigger project.

Many thanks
macgrl

 

[Gardener]

Really I suppose I should get rid of b) to e) and put them in project support? and just have a) as the hard next action that I need to do. Then on completing that look at project support and and move b) to the next actions list?

I also use OmniFocus, and this is a common problem for me - the ease of putting one more action, and then one more action, into OmniFocus leads me to overplan. Once I've overplanned, I frequently end up with a tangle of actions that aren't really Next Actions, because they depend on other actions. When I entered them, they looked like a nice straight line, but the project has changed since and now they're not. So in the discussion below I'm not even going to call these things "actions", I'm going to call them "items". They're somewhere between real project support materials, and next actions. They're essentially clutter.

While the long term goal is probably to stop entering these items, instead trusting myself to figure out the obvious next action and to put the real project planning where it really belongs, right now that won't work because those items will clutter up my brain. I won't trust my brain to remember them or figure them out, I won't trust my system to hold them, and without trust I won't progress in using the system.

However, the fact that the items are often _totally useless_ means that I don't want to add all the infrastructure of storing them outside OmniFocus. That will add a big step to my weekly review, one I'll probably skip, and then I won't trust my system then either.

So for now, I want these items in OmniFocus where they're handy for reviews, but out of my way when I'm doing daily work. I have two ways to handle this.

The first method is to enter those items into the project, giving them a Context of "Info". The "Info" context is set to On Hold. This way, those items won't float to the surface as actions and they won't clutter up any of my normal views, they're just notes that are handy when I actually go to look at the project by itself. If the next action for the project is obvious when I've finished the last one, I enter it. If I'm at a loss, the Info items are there to scan for ideas. If an Info item belongs in a real, solid project plan somewhere, the weekly review is when I have a chance to see that.

If I pile up more than a few Info items with this strategy, I'll move on to the next strategy, which is to create a _separate_ "Agenda" project, either for that project or for an area of focus that's logically above it. (Why do I call it an Agenda project and not an Info project? Nobody knows; that's my brain.) So I might have a current active project of "Fix bug reported by Jane in Widget Database 3.0" that has workable actions, and I might have another project named "Widget Database Agenda" where I put all my stray thoughts about the Widget Database. All of the Agenda projects live in a separate folder, and are usually only scanned during the Weekly Review.

Looking at your sample actions, I'm thinking that some of them may be too big, and may in fact be projects. Also, you asked:

"How do people organise projects that are part of a bigger project?"

I make them parallel projects; I dislike nesting. If a parent project depends on a child project, I just add a Next action referring to the child project. So, starting with your examples, I could imagine a series of projects like

Project: Complete Paper X
WAITING FOR: Plan this quarter's reading for Paper X.
WAITING FOR: Plan this quarter's work for Paper X.

Project: Plan this quarter's reading for Paper X
A Past Action that you've already completed: Create spreadsheet to list possible sources
Next Action: Spend one hour searching Y catalog for possible sources, add to spreadsheet.
Info: What was that book Joe mentioned?
Info: Is there a new edition of Book Z?
Info: Does my ID get me into the library at Institution A? Do I have borrowing privileges?
Info: Should i ask Professor Smith about sources, or have I bothered him too much already?

Project: Plan this quarter's work for Paper X
Past Action: Combine all notes/feedback from work submitted into one physical folder and one electronic folder.
Past Action: Create a document for notes about notes/feedback.
Next Action, Repeating: Spend one hour going through notes/feedback folders and entering notes in file, until done.
Info: Supervisor report sheet from early March also needs looking at.
Info: Pink issues in JK/JY/GRL meeting notes also need looking at.
Info: Format for plan? Maybe create a brainstorming project.

In OmniFocus, you could even add a last action for the projects that the other project is waiting for, referring to the initial project. Something like "Return to parent project Complete Paper X".

In addition to my dislike for nesting, this also frees me from necessarily having what would be "subprojects" entirely subordinate to the parent. For example, instead of "Plan this quarter's reading for Paper X" that project could simply be "Plan this quarter's academic reading". Several projects might be dependent on finishing that project, but the planning project itself might quite logically be a single project.

Gardener

 

[macgrl]

Thank you very much for your detailed reply. Very much appreciated. I agree with you about maybe having projects that are to big, that should be broken down into smaller
projects

The problem I have is making sure they are all linked and that nothing gets missed out

How do I get around that? Have then all in one overarching project folder?

Many thanks

Macgrl

 

[Gardener]

The problem I have is making sure they are all linked and that nothing gets missed out

How do I get around that? Have then all in one overarching project folder?

Instead of an overarching project folder, which annoys me by hiding things, I generally have an overarching project that refers to the other projects. In my example above, that would be the "Complete Paper X" project, the one with the two WAITING FOR actions. It's possible that Complete Paper X might _never_ get an actual workable action; it might forever just exist to "wait for" related smaller projects. But by existing, it does link those smaller projects together.

And adding a final action to the smaller projects when those projects are created, something like "Go back to Complete Paper X" adds another backup link. Or, for the example of "Plain this quarter's academic reading" you might have a final action of "Projects X, Y, Q, and R are waiting for this project," reminding you to return and look at all four of those projects. If that extra action seems like clutter, you could instead add the dependency to the project name itself. ("Plan this quarter's academic reading. Needed by X, Y, Q, R.")

Again, this comes from the fact that I dislike nesting and feel that it adds complexity and increases the risk of missing something. I'm sure that many will disagree.

Edited to add: My mind has no problem building a purely mental hierarchical structure from these notes (WAITING FOR, parent project, etc.) on the fly when and only when I need it, and reshuffling these structures based on where I started. A visual reminder of that structure is not only unnecessary for me, but annoying, because the visual reminder can't be easily reshuffled. But I seem to remember reading that programmers tend to be in the ten/fifteen percent of the population that form mental models in one particular way, and the rest of the population forms them differently. The majority way may be aided rather than annoyed by visual hierarchical layouts.

Gardener

 

[macgrl]

Thanks for the advice

 

[macgrl]

When does a project with many next actions become a big project with satilite smaller projects with their own actions?Is it when it has many independant threads / big next actions require their own actions? Is it down to personal choice of how you use project support materials to plan next actions? You could have multiple next actions mapped out for various aspects of the project there to keep your next action list uncluttered? I could then work out what the next action from the plan

With some projects that I work on say for a few hours at a time I am going to do many next actions as I go that won't go my next actions list as I just do them as I go. I could then put see plan? Do more planing on my next actions list as a marker?

 

[Gardener]

When does a project with many next actions become a big project with satilite smaller projects with their own actions?

I may be over-responding in this thread. You may have been hoping someone else would answer.

But, for me, it's as soon as it has even one independent thread that I want to work separately. And it is definitely personal choice, heavily influenced, I think, by your expertise in the area where you're working.

For example, let's say that I want to bake a cake for someone's birthday. If I'm an experienced baker and have often brought cakes to places outside my home and I have a kitchen that's always well-stocked with every baking supply I could need, that might just be a single action on an Errands-type list:

Action: Bake cake for Jane's party and bring it over on Saturday

If I'm not quite that ready, it might be a project:

Project: Provide cake for Jane's party.
Next Action: Choose recipe.
And the next Next Action might be: Inventory kitchen for ingredients, make list.

If this is all very new to me and I want to make extra sure I do a good job, on the other hand, it could be a whole structure of projects:

Project: Provide cake for Jane's party.
WAITING FOR: Choose recipe.
WAITING FOR: Figure out how to transport cake.
WAITING FOR: Obtain springform pan

Project: Choose recipe for Jane's cake
Next Action: Ask Joe if he has the recipe for that cake from Fran's baby shower.

Project: Figure out how to transport Jane's cake
Next Action: Google for appropriate Tupperware

Project: Obtain springform pan for Jane's cake
Next Action: Check Williams-Sonoma site.

(You notice that all of these titles refer to "Jane's cake" so that hopefully I won't forget why i created the projects.)

On your last question, I agree that if you're working away on a project, there's no need to keep entering Next Actions as you're working those actions - unless for some reason that gives you a good sense of structure, which is sometimes true for me. When I do stop working on a project, I may enter the next logical action, or I may enter a Next Action of "Write another action." I also do this when I'm at a loss for a next action, so that the project will appear in my OmniFocus lists and won't be submerged until my next weekly review.

Gardener

 

[macgrl]

I may be over-responding in this thread. You may have been hoping someone else would answer.

Absolutely not, thanks so much for taking the time to reply in such detail. It really is very much appreciated.

It is this that I struggle more with than anything else. The organisation of projects that are part of a bigger over all project or goal really I suppose is a better work.

I am out and about at the moment and am replying on my phone so I will read it in detail when I get back.

Again much appreciate you reply. This is an area that I want to get a grip of as these goals with many projects below them are a big part of my life at the moment

 

[kglade]

macgrl:

To go back to your original question, I handle it by making the next action (@Waiting For) read something like this:

"Ringo to reply regarding XXX, then email John, Paul and George."

Not by-the-book GTD but simple and gives me peace of mind.

 

[Suelin23]

I don't break down large projects into smaller projects, there's really no need. As long as all the next actions go onto your list its fine if they are all grouped under the one larger project.

When choosing what size a project should be, I choose the size at which it makes sense to have its own project plan using the natural planning model.

I am writing a strategy document and that is one project. I have a project plan in Word, and after the organising section I have a section called Action Checklists. For each smaller 'open loop' I have a heading for it and a list of all the things I think I need to do, and certainly if I needed to email three others, I would put a note about this in my list.
The lists are my ideas about what I think I'll need to do in future, and I often find they change based on what I have done, and am glad I don't put them into my next action list manager as they would clutter it up.
In the weekly review I check the action list section to help with updating my NA list.

My projects tend to be at a higher level than most. For me, Jane's Birthday would be the project. In my plan in the Action Checklist section I might have:
Provide cake
-find recipe
-buy ingredients
- buy box for cake
- make cake
-transport cake
Buy present
-look online
-shop at plaza
-buy card

and on my next actions lists I might just choose which ones from these I can do next, ie:
-find recipe
-look online
-buy card

Just because I've broken it down into further groups in my project plan doesn't mean I need to have those same groupings replicated in my next action list manager. I always have the project plan to refer back to if I want to check that all open loops are addressed.

 

[mthar1]

I didn't see anyone mentioning this in this thread, so I just want to make sure that you are aware that OmniFocus can have sequential actions for a project.

Personally, I often set up projects that are very simple and predictable but still include a number of discrete next actions. By setting them up in advance, I already have the next action in my system as soon as I check of the previous one and can save time by not having to enter a new next action into my system during the process.

An example would be a project of completing the meeting minutes for a meeting that could have the following (sequential) next actions:
- draft minutes
- email draft to chair person for review
- waiting for: comments from chair person
- finalize minutes
- print and mail minutes to chair person for signature
- waiting for: signed minutes from chair person
- scan signed minutes to computer
- email minutes to all attendees
- archive minutes

 

[macgrl]

Thanks for your replies guys.

I think what I am going to is have a project plan that details all the different areas of that project and then work from that project plan for that project.

As I tend to work on projects for a long time in one sitting I don't really work from a next action list just the plan to see where things are going. Especially as things change after each bit of research I do.

I then end a work session by working out the direction that I want to go in the next time I work and then put a do-able action on my next actions list under that project. That way when I scan the next actions list I can see easily where I need to pick up.

Because it is quite hard for me in my research to plan out next actions in a nice sequence (as next actions will depend on what I am doing now and so I won't know what they will be or sometimes future next actions might be made redundant with my plans changing direction)

Really I suppose all you need is one next action on a project to keep a book mark. Then when you do that next action you can work out what the next action is / just work through looking at the plan. Providing you end your work session with a new bookmark / something to pick up work again on the next action list all is good.

If there are next actions that I could do without needing to do another action first I could put this on my next action list. However in my planning I have worked out a logical order in which I want to do things and so I am going to defer to the plan for the order of the next actions.

Should smaller projects arise (i.e. those things that will take more than one action to complete) within the plan that I wish to carve out and work on independently from the main project plan I can

If a project is held up by me waiting for something then I put what I am waiting for on my waiting for list and also in the project so that I know what the state of play is

Is this a good way to go about it?

 

[cwoodgold]

I would ask myself:

-- When the email from z comes in, how likely am I to remember to
send the other emails?

-- How soon after the email from z comes in do I need to send the
other emails?

-- How important is it?

I would then set up a repeating reminder to myself. It might be a piece
of paper placed in my system such that I'll see it approximately every 2 days.
(I would only take about a second or two to look at it each time.)
It would remind me that when the email from z comes in, I have to send
the other emails. After seeing that reminder every 2 days, probably when the
email comes in I'll remember to do it immediately. If not, I would do it
when I next see the reminder. I would also put the email addresses both
on that reminder page and somewhere else where I could find them when I
look for them, probably in my general computer-file of email addresses and stuff.