What about the people not applying Getting Things Done?

[manynothings]

Hello,

Are there are ideas about the circumstances of successful people not using GTD? Is this subset non-existent, as in every successful person applies the principles of GTD in some shape or form? David Allen scarcely mentions this topic in Getting Things Done, throughout the book, he gives an extremely polarized impression of the working population: either you apply GTD, have a relaxed mind, or you don't, and fall out of control in life. Somewhere in the beginning of the book, he mentions how successful people not applying GTD create and take advantage of opportunities that create more value than the chaos that reduces. Then he vaguely mentions about how the equation is often not the case in the modern day. That is the only mention I can think of where an explanation for how the non-GTDers live their life.

Is David Allen's confident (maybe over-confident) style of writing purely to convince more readers, or is there some actual truth to this sentiment?

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered another reference: something about workers getting on a rhythm if the job is simple enough, just like the old days.

Thanks,

manynothings.

 

[Matt_M]

I cannot speak for David, but I don't see this as an either or situation. "Getting Things Done" can be applied without knowing what it is (e.g. David often gives the analogy to a child going through their room with a parent holding a box for them to put their toys away -- that, in a nutshell, is GTD).

However, the premise that David, at least in my interpretation when I read the GTD book, is suggesting is that the people who don't deliberately apply the GTD methodology tend to have the issues of a cluttered mind, overwhelmed by life, and a general clogged psyche / numbness to all of it. They can still be successful but not to the highest possible level that they could achieve than if they would apply a methodology, like GTD, deliberately. An analogy: it's like a person who goes to the gym once a week then eats a chocolate fudge cake after the workout ... yeah, they're healthier than the person who is not even working out but only ever so slightly, and eventually the shortcomings catch-up.

David admits, early on, that GTD is not for everyone, specifically people who are not knowledge workers or people who do not have a very complex life. Though I believe that the particular group, "people who don't have a complex life", is somewhat tongue-in-cheek as even the folks who I have talked to who have retired, still have a lot of stuff going on in their life: children & grandchildren, financial / estate planning, recreational activities, general house / car maintenance, relationships, volunteer activities, health and wellness, spirituality / religious aspects, etc.

The basic principle of GTD: get stuff out of your head and clarify it into a trusted system that you will regularly review and interact with; is universally applicable because even outside of a professional context people still have to manage their personal lives and those are often a complete train wreck at best or unmitigated nuclear winter at worst. GTD simply gives people a formalized process and outlines what everyone already knows: you/your brain is a terrible office - using almost anything else is better. All successful people do that in some way, shape, or form: write things down / get things out of their head and into some system whether it be a "GTD System" or just a pad of paper ... it's still doing GTD at the end of the day.

Mind you, this is not even getting into what success means person-to-person. David Allen and GTD make no particular statements or recommendations on what that success is or should be beyond maybe someone not feeling like they have a clogged psyche.

Obviously, I cannot cite any studies, sources, or scientific theories / proofs beyond the fact that science has concluded that the human brain can only store about 7, +/- 3, ideas worth of information in active memory at any given time. To some extent, GTD is a "try it and see if it works for you" type of methodology. David is not trying to force it down anyone's throat. Yes, he advertises it, promotes it, and so forth but that's everyone with any idea.

That's my perspective on the whole question at least.

 

[cfoley]

I can't speak for other people, only for myself.

You know the experience of a power cut? Suddenly the house is quiet and only when the lights go out do you realise just how much noise the electricity was making. GTD was like that for me with distraction and stress, except that I didn't suddenly become stress-free and focussed. It happened over time, in fits and starts, with setbacks and requiring constant reminders.

Before GTD, I had a calendar that I used reasonably well. Sometimes I did things that weren't best practice but all of my time commitments were in there. It kept me together enough to never miss a meeting. GTD helped polish the use of my calendar but if I had never discovered GTD, my calendar game was good enough. I think most people use a calendar reasonably well.

Before GTD, I kept "to do" lists but they were incomplete and full "amorphous stuff". One old, misguided attitude of mine was that it was silly to take detailed meeting notes, and silly to write down things that people would ask me to do, because I knew that I would never read those notes again. My to do lists did help me remember about really important things but I did forget about less important things. If things were really important to someone else, then they would remind me. I think a lot of people work on reminding each other of things that matter to them. It probably works reasonably well as a filter for the less important things as everyone will forget about those.

Before GTD, I managed to get a lot done and had good relationships. I didn't realise just how much of my attention was on things other than the task I was working on, or how much I was mentally disengaged from the people I was spending time with. Now, some people have commented on just how present I am when I am with them, and I am content at my work, knowing that everything I am not doing is tracked.

In summary, my life was good before GTD. I just didn't realise how much better it could be.

 

[bishblaize]

To paraphrase the point David Allen makes in Getting Things Done Fast, GTD is just getting you to do more of the stuff you already do that already works. Its just doing it in a methodical, systematic way.

The idea of having Next Action, Project, 20K, 30K lists and so on is probably not something most people will think of, but there's plenty of other behaviours in GTD that are not novel - actually processing your inboxes, having well defined to-do lists, reviewing your overall workload and priorities on weekly basis, making decisions on the front end not the back end, and so on.

There are no doubt many successful people out there who have not even heard of GTD that work by some of the key principles.

 

[ivanjay205]

I will speak for me and not David. I am a President and owner of a company with about 40 people. We have certainly had quite a lot of people come in and leave as well as stay over the 20+ years in existence.

I have found quite a few people that are decent at managing their time without GTD. I have found very few that are capable of driving their long term goals. They seem to do very well at applying short term goals, as well as reacting to work coming in. It is organized and it gets done. If I ask any of them to really lift their heads and look down the road a bit.... They cannot do it. As David says latest and loudest grabs them every time.

I have one exception and she does not practice GTD but she is pretty good at keeping here eyes out there. For the rest, they do fail at it. And when I speak about or give Creedence to GTD as my system of choice I feel the eye rolls lol.

I wish I could convince them but I also think the super focused and high functioning types of people are in the minority. Not everyone can be in charge of everything. And while GTD does not assume that I think the people that use it tend to be more on the highly successful side because of their dedication to their craft and systems to make every opportunity the best it can be.

 

[Tom_Hagen]

People who don't use GTD are unhappy, have pimples, and those who are married have terrible mother-in-laws.

More seriously: GTD is for people who have many obligations, both externally and internally created. If your life is simple (which is not a bad idea at all), if your job is simple and does not require you to control a lot of issues then you can easily do without GTD.

The problem is that in today's world it's really hard to live that kind of life.

Also, many people use a subset of GTD without knowing it. They collect ideas, problems - only in their heads. They constantly analyze what the problem is and what needs to be done about it. The problem is that such a procedure, i.e. collecting problems in the head, constant analysis, constantly determining the next action without putting it in the system is highly ineffective.

 

[mcogilvie]

People who don't use GTD are unhappy, have pimples, and those who are married have terrible mother-in-laws.

More seriously: GTD is for people who have many obligations, both externally and internally created. If your life is simple (which is not a bad idea at all), if your job is simple and does not require you to control a lot of issues then you can easily do without GTD.

The problem is that in today's world it's really hard to live that kind of life.

Also, many people use a subset of GTD without knowing it. They collect ideas, problems - only in their heads. They constantly analyze what the problem is and what needs to be done about it. The problem is that such a procedure, i.e. collecting problems in the head, constant analysis, constantly determining the next action without putting it in the system is highly ineffective.

I agree, kind of, but also disagree. I feel that I am beginning to see the simplicity that lies on the other side of the mountain. You can treat GTD as a process for handling all those external and internal obligations, as a way to handle things, to optimize your life. There is a real struggle, a hard climb, to exert control over what we can control. Once you reach the top of that mountain, you are not at the end. It’s just that your perspective changes, and you begin to see that GTD habitually applied can make your life better, simpler and richer. I don’t think I’m where I want to be, but I can see the simplicity that lies beyond complexity.

 

[dtj]

I personally could care less about people not doing GTD, successful for not. I, of course, try and help folks adopt it, but aren't gonna help resistant folks. If they struggle with some part (or all) of their life, due to not having solid systems like GTD, i'll mention it and exhibit no empathy, nor cut them slack. If a professional lumberjack was "old school" and insisted on using manual saws, and eschewed chainsaws, you'd not have much empathy with him, right? I can give you the cheat code for life, but I can't make you use it. When you are the high priest (or priestess) at the altar of the religion of "Busy", i'll smile and smirk, and let you sacrifice your life to it.

 

[Tom_Hagen]

[...]When you are the high priest (or priestess) at the altar of the religion of "Busy", i'll smile and smirk, and let you sacrifice your life to it.

I don't think GTD protects you from being busy. It's more of a choice: busy and calm vs busy and nervous.

 

[dtj]

I don't think GTD protects you from being busy. It's more of a choice: busy and calm vs busy and nervous.

You are indeed correct. "Be like a duck. Calm and serene on the surface, but paddling like the dickens underneath"

It's funny how ingrained it is in many cultures. Unless you're like a freaked out rabbit on a freeway, you're not on the path to success. With the girls that I mentor, I impress upon them that my systems keep me from being busy in a way that they can detect.

 

[KachriT]

I think there are many "non-GTDers" out there, happy with whatever they're doing. Some people are naturally gifted in processing work and keeping their eye on what's most important short and long term. They may have many responsibilities, but they also have the ability to discern and focus on the essentials only, without using a specific system or method. (I had one such person try to tell me it was just 'common sense' - they may not even know they HAVE a 'gift'). There are others who don't have organization or efficiency as priorities or goals. Either way, there are people who don't need GTD because they're perfectly happy with the way things are going. Even those who recognize that things aren't as good as they could be may not want to learn a 'better way'. As smarter people than I have said, corporations/big business have a high tolerance for inefficiency: it's easier to look impressively busy and engaged with an inefficient system if you think about it The goal isn't always to get things done, but to LOOK like you're getting things done and to keep other people engaged in doing 'something'.

Maybe it comes down to how you define 'success'...it's not really the same thing to everyone.

 

[Tom_Hagen]

[...] The goal isn't always to get things done, but to LOOK like you're getting things done and to keep other people engaged in doing 'something'.

I don't really believe in people who keep dozens of things in their head and are not tired of it. Most likely, such people use at least to-do lists or some yellow sticky notes, etc. The problem is that they are usually too general and force each time to analyze a given problem and decide what the next step is.

Even if someone does not explicitly use GTD, he still has to follow the rules of this system - only inefficiently. Suppose I need to change tires and I'm not using GTD. Despite this, I still had to collect this information in the inbox, which is my head. Whether I want it or not, I still have to decide - mentally - what the matter is and what I have to do: phone, maybe read about tires on the Internet, etc.

GTD is not really a new system, it just verbalises and systematizes the way each of us acts.

GTD simply makes this process more efficient.

PS. P.S. If you want to look busy in the office corridor - be sure to carry a paper folder. If you want to go home unnoticed - leave with a notebook in your hand. In desperation, you can even talk to a turned off mobile phone.

 

[dtj]

PS. P.S. If you want to look busy in the office corridor - be sure to carry a paper folder. If you want to go home unnoticed - leave with a notebook in your hand. In desperation, you can even talk to a turned off mobile phone.

Walk rapidly with a laptop open. Make a loop around the office periodically, if your office is big. Extra points for looking through the window of conference room doors as you go, like you're looking for a meeting you should be in.

 

[John Forrister]

This brought back a memory from my very first job. The notoriously long-hours boss was leaving for the day and said good night to me as she walked by. I realized I had accidentally scored points.

Happily, my current boss does not confuse hours worked with productive results.

 

[dtj]

This brought back a memory from my very first job. The notoriously long-hours boss was leaving for the day and said good night to me as she walked by. I realized I had accidentally scored points.

Happily, my current boss does not confuse hours worked with productive results.

In my first internship, which launched a 30 yr career, I made it a policy to be there when my boss got in every morning, and be there when he left. It wasn’t hard because I was having so much fun that it was harder to stay away from the office for 6 hrs per day, for years.

 

[Matt_M]

I can empathize with showing that you are committed to the job, team, and company. There is absolutely truth in it too, as nobody gets a second chance to make a first impression and first impressions matter the most. I am thinking back to some of my best jobs and they were ones where when I first on-boarded I was the force to be reckoned with, as I constantly made sure I was not only on top of everything but hyper responsive, available for all sorts of challenges and opportunities, etc. In turn I was greatly rewarded with more trust, responsibility, and ultimately more autonomy because I had proved I could not only talk the talk but walk the walk. This allowed me certain flexibility later on not afford to others because they did not put in the same level of effort.

However, while I do not dissuade people from putting their best foot forward for first impressions and so forth, I do dissuade people from doing two things: not taking time away from work and trying to compete with their superiors or senior staff (i.e. keeping up with their hours, working off hours, taking on others' problems as your own, etc.).

Getting away from work from time to time is so absolutely essential and beneficial (it is as much of a scientific fact as gravity) that paid vacation, time-off, sick-leave, etc. should be enshrined at the constitutional amendment level, however I digress. There is a point of diminishing returns when someone works 24/7 365 such that quite quickly the results actually just turn into pure negations (i.e. for every 1 hour worked, X hours of additional (re)work is required).

Going back to another job I had, I did my usual approach of "shift into over-drive" to make a great first impression and a short period of time later, my manager pulled me aside and imparted some great wisdom: while everyone appreciates all of the hard work I was putting in, it was a problem for a few reasons: it is not sustainable, it creates a dependency on me for too much work, it makes others feel like they don't need to/can't take on challenges, and ultimately will create a culture where people would start resenting me. He also mentioned that he works excessive hours because he owns part of the company and has legal responsibilities he cannot shirk away from. It helped him as well because anytime he found someone working as hard as he is, or harder, he knows who is doing way too much and that there is a problem (i.e. not enough staff, poor processes, lack of tools/resources, improper expectations, etc.).

I still appreciate this advice to this very day.