Any thoughts on rebellion?

[Anonymous]

Like many who turn to methods like GTD, I am a procrastinator.

My procrastination stems from all the usual sources, but my main enemies have been perfectionism and rebellion.

Over the past year, I've been doing very well with the perfectionism -
identifying it, and using various techniques to combat it.

Rebellion, on the other hand, is a tough issue for me! Whenever I get reasonably on track with what I have to (need to, want to) do, it will inevitably appear, tempting me to just let go, leave that silly system, don't follow any stupid rules, go with the flow, have another cup of coffee, deal with all that stuff later.

Please, if anyone has overcome this, or has any advice to offer, I'm most grateful.

Tess

 

[Anonymous]

Neil Fiore's "The Now Habit" famously deals with this tendency.

Dave

 

[CosmoGTD]

Sounds to me like a deeper personality pattern.
What i would suggest is to "dispute" those very thoughts you mentioned.

On the other hand, you 'could" be wanting to over-regiment yourself with too many rules, and you need some time to go with the flow.

Why not make a "go with the flow" category, and make a list of things to do with that?
Also, use "go with the flow" as a REWARD after you get your work done.

Every person is different, so find a way to customize any "system" to work for you. You don't need to conform to the system. Be a Rebel with a Cause.

Coz

 

[Scott_L_Lewis]

Re: Any thoughts on rebellion?

My procrastination stems from all the usual sources, but my main enemies have been perfectionism and rebellion.

Tess,

I have two problems with planning systems that can trigger a rebellion response in me. The first is that planning systems constantly remind me of things that I don't want to do. The second is that I tend to get carried away with "accomplishing things" and don't set up next actions for rest, relaxation, and fun.

In the first case, the rebellion is against the thing I don't want to do. In the second, the rebellion is against my own self betrayal.

When you start feeling rebellion, stop and examine where the feelings are coming from. Do you want to go with the flow and have another cup of coffee when a task you detest is sitting right at the top of a next action list? If so, you may be rebelling against doing that action, and your rebellion against the system is just a way to shoot the messenger.

On the other hand, do your feelings of rebellion arise after you have been working for a while and are just tired or bored? Check your system. Are there any projects, appointments, or next actions related to things you love to do and are you actually doing them? If not, then your rebellion against the system is just a way to shoot yourself - and deservedly so since you are using the system as an instrument for running yourself into the ground.

There are tons of techniques for getting to work on things that you don't want to do. A lot of them can be found in various threads here. Using your system to live the kind of life you want to live, however, is only something that you can do for yourself.

 

[joshwa]

There are tons of techniques for getting to work on things that you don't want to do. A lot of them can be found in various threads here.

Care to point out some good ones on this topic?

Thanks,
--Josh

 

[Anonymous]

Rebels, see the post by andersons in this thread
http://www.davidco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1599

I am a major putter-offer and put autonomy high on my list of must-haves (which is another way of saying I don't wanna haveta do it if I don't wanna do it). What andersons says in the post about consciously choosing to do the thing you've been avoiding makes a lot of sense as a way to overcome the rebel aspect of the problem. It's worked with me, as long as I'm cooperative enough with myself to do it. This afternoon I've been avoiding paying bills for no good reason (I have the money, it's only a few bills, etc.) but I decided I'm going to do them because it's just such a boring drag to have them hanging over my head for the holidays (I'm in the US), so out they go, no big deal. Maybe it helps that I've also taken one of the other suggestions to heart, which is rewards/fun. I'm finally working on a hobby I've dreamt of for decades, so I have something to look forward to doing when my work-work is done. I won't play til my tasks are out of the way, and I find I'm enjoying it much more than I have the unearned breaks I've taken in the past.

I believe that "guilty pleasure" is an oxymoron, but maybe that's my Calvinist upbringing showing thru.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you all!

Be a Rebel with a Cause!

Just a matter of finding my Cause, I guess...

The first is that planning systems constantly remind me of things that I don't want to do. The second is that I tend to get carried away with "accomplishing things" and don't set up next actions for rest, relaxation, and fun.

Great analysis! I'll try to pay attention to this distinction in the future. Usually, I have no big problems with each NA, it's the big gray mass of them that gets me down.

What andersons says in the post about consciously choosing to do the thing you've been avoiding makes a lot of sense as a way to overcome the rebel aspect of the problem.

This does make sense. I think I'll put some post-its here and there to remind me.

It's worked with me, as long as I'm cooperative enough with myself to do it.

Well, that's the problem isn't it - I don't cooperate with myself! Maybe I'm a simply being a poor manager, and no-one likes working for a bad boss, even if it's yourself.

So, here's the new deal: Boss-me will do better by allowing time for rest and recreation. I think frequent short breaks is a good idea in my situation. Worker-me will vow to not play until I've earned it!

Thanks again for your insights on this issue.

Tess

 

[TesTeq]

Cooperate with yourself!

Cooperate with yourself!

Great quote :!:
TesTeq

 

[Busydave]

Looks like it's only us Europeans here today Tes!!

 

[TesTeq]

Europeans

Looks like it's only us Europeans here today Tes!!

Do you think we, Europeans, are bigger procrastinators than Americans?
Are we perfectionsts, rebels or simply lazy people?
I would prefer the first two options - unpragmatic dreamers/perfectionists or individualistic rebels.
Very often Americans are doing before thinking and Europeans are thinking instead of :lol: doing.
TesTeq

 

[webagogue]

Looks like it's only us Europeans here today Tes!!

Most Americans are in a tryptophane coma our getting ready for the big sales on Friday . Thursday is Thanksgiving and Friday is usually a holiday (except for us expats who won't get any turkey until Christmas :cry: )

 

[Busydave]

Re: Europeans

Very often Americans are doing before thinking and Europeans are thinking instead of :lol: doing.
TesTeq

I have been an avid reader of Tom Peters, Tony Robbins, Peter Drucker, and more recently David Allen, Fastcompany, The CEO Refresher and even ThinkTQ for the past ten years. This had led me to many other business related articles on U.S. based websites.

My overriding feeling about the American way is that it is based solidly on action. The biggest problem that America seems to face is how to coordinate and motivate action across huge organisations.

I find that I have lost a lot of my European outlook as a result. I think there is a thread of Marxist cynicism running through a lot of what we try to do in Europe – even when big initiatives and organisations are excellently planned and set up, there is always a background murmur of “What’s really going on here? Who is using who? Who is behind it all? Who are the Fat Cats who stand to make a fortune for this? Why should I help pad their wallets and pay for their private jets?”

This attitude is destructive and counter-progressive, and poisons initiative.

I find that I am now looking at my European influences like an outsider, and I am able to pick and choose which ones suite me and which ones I will drop.

Dave

 

[TesTeq]

Re: Europeans

I think there is a thread of Marxist cynicism running through a lot of what we try to do in Europe – even when big initiatives and organisations are excellently planned and set up, there is always a background murmur of “What’s really going on here? Who is using who? Who is behind it all? Who are the Fat Cats who stand to make a fortune for this? Why should I help pad their wallets and pay for their private jets?”
Dave

1) The "thinking instead of doing" is not always for finding "who is behind it all". Sometimes it is endless discussion of possible options of doing something and trying to find 1% better solution when the current solution is good (perfectionism).

2) But maybe somebody is really behind it all and maybe Americans simply don't see it. Or maybe Americans are behind it all to slow us, Europeans :lol: .

TesTeq

 

[Busydave]

Re: Europeans

1) The "thinking instead of doing" is not always for finding "who is behind it all". Sometimes it is endless discussion of possible options of doing something and trying to find 1% better solution when the current solution is good (perfectionism).

Once the decision is made, then it’s all over bar the shouting. There will always be those who are dissatisfied with the result of large scale projects, and in a society of mixed political structures they have ample opportunity to speak out while the planning is going on, therefore slowing down the process. (Oops! Starting to sound a bit right-wing here!! :shock: )

2) But maybe somebody is really behind it all and maybe Americans simply don't see it. Or maybe Americans are behind it all to slow us, Europeans :lol: .TesTeq

NOW we're getting somewhere … I think … :?

 

[Anonymous]

Glad to see some intellectual discourse while all the Americans are away shopping (guess the first ones are getting in line for the early-bird sales as I'm typing)! Here, it's almost 1 PM and I'm having another cup of coffe...

My overriding feeling about the American way is that it is based solidly on action

As a European who has spent several years living and working in the States, this is my feeling to. I'ts also my feeling that this is the very thing that is costing us the leadership of the world, in a sense. In moderate doses, esp. on a personal level, the American way is very refreshing! As a nation, though, one might wish they had a slightly more advanced thought process to balance all this action....

I think there is a thread of Marxist cynicism running through a lot of what we try to do in Europe

I agree, and I also agree that it's destructive and poisonous.

I have a personal history with cynicism. I used to think it was smart, sort of a cool attitude, never to be impressed, never get carried away, always looking through everything. Then my manager, best boss I ever had (and a European!) pointed out that it's just another way to hide, and do nothing. People who stand to the side making cynical remarks will never be accused of being naïve, or making bad desicions, or having poor judgement - but they won't ever accomplish much, either. This really hit me hard, and now I always try to fight cynicism both in myself and others.

But come to think of it - this cynicism is closely related to rebellion, isn't it?

Tess

 

[Rainer Burmeister]

Cynic and Moralist

But come to think of it - this cynicism is closely related to rebellion, isn't it?

Tess,

I'd say: Cynism is frustrated and disappointed moralization, a cynic is a frustrated moralist. And moralization might be a kind of neglection of (rebellion against?) our human nature, which is neither bad nor good.

Rainer

 

[Busydave]

But come to think of it - this cynicism is closely related to rebellion, isn't it?

Nice bit of self-diagnosis Tess: maybe a “shadow of the past” still lurking?! It’s great to spot the enemy within – it makes it much easier to change.

I have a personal history with cynicism. I used to think ... and now I always try to fight cynicism both in myself and others.

There is a long article by Andrew Corsello of GQ magazine reproduced in full on the Anthony Robbins website where this topic is tackled full on with both guns blazing. Robbins’ Action is presented as the perfect antidote.

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, what was going on while we were eating and sleeping? We shouldn't let our guard down like that again!

Actually, it's fascinating to see how others see us, and you were kind in the process, as for the past year and a half I haven't felt very kind myself about the way we're acting and dealing with the rest of the world. (And I'm a rabid, loyal, native-born and grateful for it, Texan).

I lived in the Middle East for a few years in the mid-eighties and taught English at a British institution. It was interesting to see the attitudes toward management, the instinctive, palpable hostility and suspicion. It was a surprise to me, since previously I had been teaching in an American institution and while we weren't happy with everything that was going on and our working conditions, etc, there was a difference--an attitude more of acceptance and cooperation without the suspicion. But the British were definitely competent and hard-working and dedicated to success. There was just that holding back in attitude.

My husband is foreign-born and moved here to the States late in life, and I see in him some characteristics that are very different from our approach. I want to just get started and do something, like putting in a patio in a particular spot in our yard, just start and take the first step, then the next, and as we go along we could work out the problems and the costs (I know it's not free but it's not going to be terribly expensive, either--a few hundred dollars, perhaps as much as $750, which we would be paying as we go along over the course of six months to a year).

However, my husband wants to know before starting what the exact cost would be, what the individual steps along the way would cost, how we would accomplish everything, etc. I keep saying we'll work that out as we go along, there's no doubt that we can solve whatever problems come up, so let's just start doing it. But he wants it all laid out on paper before we begin.

And I don't like talking about these things, I just want to do them.

I see some of these differences in the Middle East peace process. But I won't get into that.

--Plano, TX

 

[spectecGTD]

A couple of thoughts on some of the ideas in this thread:

The true cynic says "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't seem to keep up with reality". Personally, I've never known cynical people who accomplished very much of lasting significance, but I've known many who threw enough cold water on deserving projects to stop them or change their course for the worse.

With respect to planning vs getting started:
"The worst enemy of a good plan is the dream of the perfect plan."

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed w/the last poster on the negative effects of cynicism--it's a motivational killer.

I think it's worth understanding where it's often rooted, though. I think of cynics (myself included) as disappointed romantics, people who never got over the massive sense of betrayal (if not outright injustice) at finding out how "the system" really works. The "system" can be anything from the first unit (the family) to schoolyard dynamics to an institution, to society at large. Discovering you've been duped by a structurally corrupt scheme and its knowing and duplicitous operatives--whether they're parents/other relatives, teachers, administrators, politicians, priests, or pop stars--can put the kibosh on allowing yourself to trust that you're not being hoodwinked in future. This is not the same thing as wanting to share in the equity of an enterprise one is helping build or sustain. If you're a wage worker, you can see that you're not getting paid commensurate with the value of what you're contributing - it's not a secret. Cynicism arises from discovering that you were naively supporting someone else's dirty scheme, and enriching them in the bargain. It compromises your ethics, or at minimum, deprives you of informed consent. Admonitions to "be realistic" about endemic corruption are actually directives to accept the status quo, and to deal with it you can fall in and cooperate, resort to doing protest marches and conspiracy theory, or just Bartleby your way through life (the cynicism hat). I've been thinking about this recently as I watch--finally--some hard evidence come forward to indicate that our recent (US) elections were indeed fixed. But that's a topic for another forum.

Ironically, even though GTD seems motivation-dependent and would not work for a cynic, I think it's the ideal organizational solution for those of us so blessed. One of the most powerful attributess of GTD is the way it functions as a transparent, values-independent tool to keep one on track. By this, I mean that GTD does not rely on one's belief in one's self, or one's deity, or country, or quarks to keep one focused on one's objectives. (Okay, maybe the quarks....) It is self-demonstrating, self-probitive at every turn.

BTW, a lot of us Yanks are going nowhere near the stores and malls today. It ain't called "Black Friday" for nothing. :wink: