Connecting Notes and Task Lists

[Oogiem]

But I am also not enjoying that I need to create a project in Omnifocus and create a project in my note taking system. And when they are done in omnifocus archive in my note taking system. Just feels like lots of steps and micromanagement.

I was using Omnifocus and DEVONThink in a similar fashion for years. When I dropped DEVONThink for Obsidian I decided to also jump ship and move out of Omnifocus as well.For me the downsides of doing it all in a tool clearly not specifically designed for task management but making it work with the Tasks Plug-In adds just enough friction on the front end of creating the project note to make me stop to decide if I really have the bandwidth to work on that project now. The day to day work is so much simpler than it ever ws before that I'm willng to put up with some front end work.

It is so convenient that I am highly tempted to move my project list from paper into Obsidian.

Add the built in templates function and it's simple to have a pre-formatted project note.

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out.... How do I connect my next actions, project lists, and notes and supporting documents (not long term file storage) together? And bonus points if I can connect Higher Horizons as well..

In Obsidian I do it by having a tasks heading in my project note. I happen to use the Tasks Plugin and within it my contexts are tags in a hierarchical tagging system. In YAML front matter (now called properties) I put a tag for my AOF's which handles the linking to higher horizons. I then created simple dashboard notes to slice and dice my system in several different views. I put links to those presentation notes in a _Home note that is the top thing on my phone and tablet when I open Obsidian. Heres a sample of the code that creates the phone and busniness phone contexts of my tasks.

# Phone
```tasks 
not done 
is not blocked
(starts before tomorrow)
(path does not include 05.01_Hold_Projects )
tag includes Phone
short mode
```
# Phone Business
```tasks 
not done 
is not blocked
(starts before tomorrow)
(path does not include 05.01_Hold_Projects )
tag includes #Context/BusinessPh 
short mode
```

 

[ivanjay205]

This might come off a bit rude, however that's not my intention. This is just another example of trying to find the "perfect"/"ultimate" GTD app. It doesn't exist, unfortunately. Even mine has limitations that aren't worth overcoming. There would be so many disparate tools (incl. tools others use to collaborate) to integrate and collate together that it is impossible.

If it helps: having such a simple workflow of creating mirror projects/notes to match the opposite entry and then just archiving both when done is pretty good, actually. Even if just takes you a minute or so, it's not something worth automating since the time invested to automate it will far exceed the time to just do it manually.

Put another way, is spending a few minutes every week cleaning up each app to be consistent (ideally, in a review whereby doing the clean up may prompt you for more actions/follow-up tasks as part of just putting eyeballs on it again) the biggest improvement opportunity or most value-added use of your time?

I completely do understand your point but do not necessarily agree with it. I am a business owner / CEO. My time is precious, I dont mean that to be pretentious or by suggesting my time is worth more than others. But for success in my role I need to maximize every opportunity to move the needle. So any repetitive task that takes time is something that I aim to improve significantly. Lets just say this clean up take 5 minutes per week between all of my projects, inconsequential most would say.

Minutes * 52 weeks = 260 minutes or almost 4 1 /2 hours a year. That is enough time to accomplish another major task in whatever I am working on. Over my 25 years thus far that is 108 hours. I just got back over 2 weeks of work over my career by automating it.

Again I know that sounds ridiculous but it is how my mind works. Time is finite so I really do my very best to look for the right tool to maximize it.

But if it is just not there, it is just not there

 

[mcogilvie]

I completely do understand your point but do not necessarily agree with it. I am a business owner / CEO. My time is precious, I dont mean that to be pretentious or by suggesting my time is worth more than others. But for success in my role I need to maximize every opportunity to move the needle. So any repetitive task that takes time is something that I aim to improve significantly. Lets just say this clean up take 5 minutes per week between all of my projects, inconsequential most would say.

Minutes * 52 weeks = 260 minutes or almost 4 1 /2 hours a year. That is enough time to accomplish another major task in whatever I am working on. Over my 25 years thus far that is 108 hours. I just got back over 2 weeks of work over my career by automating it.

Again I know that sounds ridiculous but it is how my mind works. Time is finite so I really do my very best to look for the right tool to maximize it.

But if it is just not there, it is just not there

One of the classic mistakes of programming is premature optimization: optimizing parts of a program before you know how significant hose parts are in determining the speed of execution of the program. When you add to that the fragility and hard-to-maintain nature of most linking schemes and most scripts, it’s easy to waste time on such stuff. I know of cases where some change snuck in, and large amounts of extra work were thereby generated. In some cases, data was irrevocably lost. So what looks like efficiency at first can go badly wrong.

 

[bcmyers2112]

@ivanjay205: Regarding Evernote, I use it regularly and it seems to be enjoying a resurgence. The new owners, a company called Bending Spoons, have invested in getting rid of old code, giving the app a more modern look and feel, and adding new features that I'm finding very useful. Others will tell you Evernote is of the devil and no one should use it. Their feelings are no less valid than mine, so -- take your pick, I guess.

I use Todoist at the moment and have used IFTTT to create an integration between Todoist and Evernote. I'm not sure I'm going to keep using it. Like @mcogilvie, I think these things tend to be brittle.

I'm also in complete agreement with @Matt_M. My attempts to "optimize" GTD with automation have done nothing but waste my time. I'm finding simpler tools are better.

I also once tried to link everything at every horizon together and it became an unholy mess. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve with such a model but I found that there is no substitute for regular engagement with my various lists.

It's true that David Allen has said that sometimes it takes complexity to simplify a complex event. He used the example of what takes place under the hood when you turn the ignition of a car.

But imagine rather than just driving if you spent all of your time trying to "optimize" that process somehow, instead of accepting you're not an automotive designer or a mechanic. You'd get to places late, if at all. You'd have to neglect other work in pursuit of your obsession.

Software programs, even the simplest ones, are complex enough under the hood. I prefer those that just let me use them, rather than having to become a computer programmer, which is neither a club in my bag nor an aspiration of mine.

Moreover, GTD is ultimately a simple methodology. It's just not easy. It becomes a lot less easy when I burden myself with attempts to "optimize" my system with shiny new tools, integrations, excessively complicating organizational schemes, and the like.

I prefer just as much structure as I need to get the job done. No more and no less. In my experience, adding structure or complications to my GTD system created more work, not less. At a certain point I realized I have to stop looking for what amount to shiny new toys to relieve me of work. If I want the results, I have to do the work.

 

[bobusa]

@ivanjay205: Regarding Evernote, I use it regularly and it seems to be enjoying a resurgence. The new owners, a company called Bending Spoons, have invested in getting rid of old code, giving the app a more modern look and feel, and adding new features that I'm finding very useful. Others will tell you Evernote is of the devil and no one should use it. Their feelings are no less valid than mine, so -- take your pick, I guess.

I use Todoist at the moment and have used IFTTT to create an integration between Todoist and Evernote. I'm not sure I'm going to keep using it. Like @mcogilvie, I think these things tend to be brittle.

I'm also in complete agreement with @Matt_M. My attempts to "optimize" GTD with automation have done nothing but waste my time. I'm finding simpler tools are better.

I also once tried to link everything at every horizon together and it became an unholy mess. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve with such a model but I found that there is no substitute for regular engagement with my various lists.

It's true that David Allen has said that sometimes it takes complexity to simplify a complex event. He used the example of what takes place under the hood when you turn the ignition of a car.

But imagine rather than just driving if you spent all of your time trying to "optimize" that process somehow, instead of accepting you're not an automotive designer or a mechanic. You'd get to places late, if at all. You'd have to neglect other work in pursuit of your obsession.

Software programs, even the simplest ones, are complex enough under the hood. I prefer those that just let me use them, rather than having to become a computer programmer, which is neither a club in my bag nor an aspiration of mine.

Moreover, GTD is ultimately a simple methodology. It's just not easy. It becomes a lot less easy when I burden myself with attempts to "optimize" my system with shiny new tools, integrations, excessively complicating organizational schemes, and the like.

I prefer just as much structure as I need to get the job done. No more and no less. In my experience, adding structure or complications to my GTD system created more work, not less. At a certain point I realized I have to stop looking for what amount to shiny new toys to relieve me of work. If I want the results, I have to do the work.

Wel said, thank you

 

[René Lie]

@ivanjay205: Regarding Evernote, I use it regularly and it seems to be enjoying a resurgence. The new owners, a company called Bending Spoons, have invested in getting rid of old code, giving the app a more modern look and feel, and adding new features that I'm finding very useful. Others will tell you Evernote is of the devil and no one should use it. Their feelings are no less valid than mine, so -- take your pick, I guess.

I use Todoist at the moment and have used IFTTT to create an integration between Todoist and Evernote. I'm not sure I'm going to keep using it. Like @mcogilvie, I think these things tend to be brittle.

I'm also in complete agreement with @Matt_M. My attempts to "optimize" GTD with automation have done nothing but waste my time. I'm finding simpler tools are better.

I also once tried to link everything at every horizon together and it became an unholy mess. I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve with such a model but I found that there is no substitute for regular engagement with my various lists.

It's true that David Allen has said that sometimes it takes complexity to simplify a complex event. He used the example of what takes place under the hood when you turn the ignition of a car.

But imagine rather than just driving if you spent all of your time trying to "optimize" that process somehow, instead of accepting you're not an automotive designer or a mechanic. You'd get to places late, if at all. You'd have to neglect other work in pursuit of your obsession.

Software programs, even the simplest ones, are complex enough under the hood. I prefer those that just let me use them, rather than having to become a computer programmer, which is neither a club in my bag nor an aspiration of mine.

Moreover, GTD is ultimately a simple methodology. It's just not easy. It becomes a lot less easy when I burden myself with attempts to "optimize" my system with shiny new tools, integrations, excessively complicating organizational schemes, and the like.

I prefer just as much structure as I need to get the job done. No more and no less. In my experience, adding structure or complications to my GTD system created more work, not less. At a certain point I realized I have to stop looking for what amount to shiny new toys to relieve me of work. If I want the results, I have to do the work.

@bcmyers2112

I admire your eloquence, Sir!
And as usual, you're spot on...

 

[Matt_M]

I completely do understand your point but do not necessarily agree with it. I am a business owner / CEO. My time is precious, I dont mean that to be pretentious or by suggesting my time is worth more than others. But for success in my role I need to maximize every opportunity to move the needle. So any repetitive task that takes time is something that I aim to improve significantly. Lets just say this clean up take 5 minutes per week between all of my projects, inconsequential most would say.

Minutes * 52 weeks = 260 minutes or almost 4 1 /2 hours a year. That is enough time to accomplish another major task in whatever I am working on. Over my 25 years thus far that is 108 hours. I just got back over 2 weeks of work over my career by automating it.

Again I know that sounds ridiculous but it is how my mind works. Time is finite so I really do my very best to look for the right tool to maximize it.

But if it is just not there, it is just not there

All fair enough. I really do agree with you. I am a huge proponent that time is the most precious resource of all, don't waste a single second of it. In that vein, I will add two notes:

Be careful of spending time on switching or fiddling with systems, tools, apps, etc. in search of something just a little better, a little more integrated, or a little smoother. There are certainly cases where it makes sense but there is always a cost in switching horses, especially mid-race. I haven't switched tools in 5 years and won't ever need to switch. However, I did spend nearly 2 years prior swapping between all kinds of apps (OmniFocus, Things, ThinkingRock, Informant, Excel, Outlook, Nirvana, TickTick, 2Do, AnyDo, Reminders, Todo.txt, etc.). Each time I switched, I just lost more time spending "doing GTD" rather than "getting things done". I sacrificed strategic value for tactical folly.

I applaud you for doing the math, however, there is a fundamental missing premise in it (i.e. quality). The saved 4.5 hours are not contiguous or composed of large contiguous blocks of time. True, you may save the 4.5 hours over the course of a year but it will be in 5 minute increments ... probably not the most effective savings. Penny-wise, pound foolish; as the saying goes. Granted, spend too much time doing lots of small "5-minute" things and eventually it adds up; death by a thousand cuts. It's all about picking and choosing our battles (especially the highest quality ones).

 

[mksilk2]

Someone at work said this the other day and it really resonated with me: "At the far side of complexity sits simplicity'. ie in my mind that means you need to fully understand something to make it simple. And sometimes that means you have to go through this level of trying to automate before you come to the realization that simplification is key....

 

[mcogilvie]

Years ago, I learned from a book called, I think, Mastery, a simple classification for stages of learning something. In the student stage, you can do things, but slowly and haltingly. In the journeyman stage, you do those things surely and intuitively. Mastery means doing those same things while giving a detailed, deep explanation of why you are doing them. As a university professor, a job which goes back around a thousand years, I find it a useful scheme for many aspects of life, GTD included.

 

[gtdstudente]

Someone at work said this the other day and it really resonated with me: "At the far side of complexity sits simplicity'. ie in my mind that means you need to fully understand something to make it simple. And sometimes that means you have to go through this level of trying to automate before you come to the realization that simplification is key....

@mksilk2

Thank you for your GTD post

In intellectual agreement with " . . . you need to fully understand something to make it simple"

Additionally, ease is what what facilitates implementation for habituated continuation ?

As such, 'simplicity' for intellectual understanding and ease for volitional doing ?

In 'trembling' conclusion: Simple can be deemed 'Top Down' while Easy is 'Bottom Up' ?

Thank you very much

As you see GTD fit. . . .

 

[ivanjay205]

All fair enough. I really do agree with you. I am a huge proponent that time is the most precious resource of all, don't waste a single second of it. In that vein, I will add two notes:

Be careful of spending time on switching or fiddling with systems, tools, apps, etc. in search of something just a little better, a little more integrated, or a little smoother. There are certainly cases where it makes sense but there is always a cost in switching horses, especially mid-race. I haven't switched tools in 5 years and won't ever need to switch. However, I did spend nearly 2 years prior swapping between all kinds of apps (OmniFocus, Things, ThinkingRock, Informant, Excel, Outlook, Nirvana, TickTick, 2Do, AnyDo, Reminders, Todo.txt, etc.). Each time I switched, I just lost more time spending "doing GTD" rather than "getting things done". I sacrificed strategic value for tactical folly.

I applaud you for doing the math, however, there is a fundamental missing premise in it (i.e. quality). The saved 4.5 hours are not contiguous or composed of large contiguous blocks of time. True, you may save the 4.5 hours over the course of a year but it will be in 5 minute increments ... probably not the most effective savings. Penny-wise, pound foolish; as the saying goes. Granted, spend too much time doing lots of small "5-minute" things and eventually it adds up; death by a thousand cuts. It's all about picking and choosing our battles (especially the highest quality ones).

Very fair point and analogy in that it is not continuous time. And some of the other posts in this thread did resonate with me as well (I just didnt want to respond to each one line item by line item

I really do feel it would be as simple as Omnifocus expanding on their note taking capability as I would gladly use that as a single source tool. And I am often guilty of fiddling costing me time in my systems so I can agree and understand with that point.

 

[bcmyers2112]

I am a business owner / CEO. My time is precious, I dont mean that to be pretentious or by suggesting my time is worth more than others.

I don't think it's "pretentious," but I think everyone's time is precious. Each of us only has a finite number of minutes on this Earth. The question is: how do we spend those minutes in the most worthwhile way? I think the answer is going to be different for each person, because every one of us is unique. But, again, everyone's time is precious because once spent, we never get it back.

But for success in my role I need to maximize every opportunity to move the needle. So any repetitive task that takes time is something that I aim to improve significantly. Lets just say this clean up take 5 minutes per week between all of my projects, inconsequential most would say.

Minutes * 52 weeks = 260 minutes or almost 4 1 /2 hours a year. That is enough time to accomplish another major task in whatever I am working on. Over my 25 years thus far that is 108 hours. I just got back over 2 weeks of work over my career by automating it.

Again I know that sounds ridiculous but it is how my mind works. Time is finite so I really do my very best to look for the right tool to maximize it.

I don't think it sounds "ridiculous." At one time, I also tried very hard to find the perfect tools to maximize my efficiency. What I found was that the time I was spending doing so was exceeding any return on my investment. But more important I realized there was an emotional cost to it.

I realize your example is a hypothetical. But I have to ask: if you could save 4.5 hours per year or give yourself peace of mind by not focusing on time in this way, which would you prefer? What does it cost you in time to save time? What does it cost you emotionally? When you reach the end of your days and look back on things, will you treasure the effort you put into saving a few minutes here and there with software tools? Not to put too fine a point on it, but I've noticed that focusing on tools and hyper-efficiency is a recurring theme for you. You don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I'm genuinely curious: what has putting in that effort done to improve your quality of life vs. what it costs you?

Don't get me wrong. On an organizational level, process improvements can often save significant amounts of time and have an impact on the bottom line. Even at a personal level, it can make sense to look at how you do things to see if you can do them better. But there comes a point of diminishing returns.

For me, just cultivating the GTD behaviors is a way to ensure I'm maximally efficient. For me, getting good at those behaviors trumps searching for automation a thousand times over. Moreover, there is something else GTD offers that is even more precious to me than time: focus.
As an ADHDer I've learned that focus is is my greatest resource. Focus trumps output a thousand times over as well. Because if I'm appropriately focused on what I'm doing, then I am being maximally efficient. And I'm also enhancing my quality of life in a way that was impossible when I was chasing magical software unicorns.

 

[Lucas W.]

I really do feel it would be as simple as Omnifocus expanding on their note taking capability as I would gladly use that as a single source tool.

Yes, you are right. It is not about links but about nested notes that move with the project or task.

This may be enough in 80% of cases, and the remaining 20% will be much easier to manage regardless of their location.

 

[mcogilvie]

At this time, I’m using Things more or less as the GTD setup guide suggests, with context lists separate from projects. I generally put project support as items under each project, which works well. Projects and next actions get an Area of Focus label, so I can get an overview of all Health et cetera projects and actions very easily. This replaces linking for me and works well. I do use Bear for some notes, which works well with Things due to Markdown. I don’t generally put in place a link, but sometimes do. I also use Apple Notes and 1Password for specialized note types. Things links well to email, so I generally don’t move email to a notes app. In all, having Things as a central hub works well, is fast, and handles both simple and complicated projects without fuss. Of course, it did take me a long time to get where I am….

I should also have said that I use both Apple iCloud and Dropbox. The latter has large project files going back years. I have access to these on computer, tablet and phone. People have written here that no complete solution exists. Aside from minor digital foibles, I have access to everything just about everywhere at any time with minimal fuss.

 

[bishblaize]

Its not really a comment on Para as such, but this is just a regular shoutout to Hookmarks for people wanting to link content across different apps. (MacOS only) You can hook objects together, so when you're looking at one, with a keyboard shortcut you can see a list of files linked to it.

Its great for project support material because you can use the project in your task manager as an anchor and attach all the related content the project. This includes files and folders, calendar appointments, notes, project plans, web pages, emails, even specific paragraphs in PDFs.

This is great when you have files you're working on that you can't keep in your own system, like work documents stored on a shared drive or in cloud based services. Its a particular lifesaver when you return to a project you've not touched for 3 weeks and you can't immediately remember where all your stuff was. Seeing a project you'd forgotten about, then pressing a button and being shown every email, meeting note and draft related to it is such as pleasure.

Its definitely a geek tool, but its also one of those things that, once you get used to it, you wonder how you ever did without it.