Is it really possible to have a complete system?

[Barb]

Attention

If something doesn't really have your attention, there's really no need for it to be in your system. For instance, let's say I have a closet in a bedroom that is never used. And say that closet it full of stuff and the stuff is not used. If the stuff in the closet is not pulling at my attention in any way, there really is no need to capture anything about that closet into my system at the present time.

Now, let's say that closet starts to niggle at my brain just a tiny bit. I'm not ready to commit to any action about that closet, I just know that someday I probably want to think about it. I'd put an entry about it on "Someday/Maybe" and get the niggling to stop.

You want things on your lists so your attention is purposefully placed at the appropriate time. Errands to run when they need to be run, bills paid before they are due, travel arrangements made before it's too late, etc. So these things go on your active lists. You don't want your attention grabbed because you wake up one day, look at your calendar, and realize you really should be on a plane to see a customer in another city to make a presentation. Oops! Or get up to take a prescription medication only to realize you don't have any more and there are no refills. Oops! Attention grabbed.

If you make a regular practice of keeping things in your system (even if in someday/maybe) and not in your head, there really isn't endless capture left to be done. I'll get up early tomorrow to do my weekly review and I'll start that with a Mind Sweep. I would be very surprised if I come up with more than 5-6 new things--if I came up with nothing at all new, it wouldn't be the first time.

But if I have no commitment at all--to myself or anyone else--to take action on something in particular, it simply is not in my system. It may be on someday/maybe if the only commitment I have around it is to think about it again at some point, but that's it.

So unless I missed something....having a commitment to act is the missing ingredient in this thread so far. I apologize if I just didn't read far enough back or closely enough.

 

[cwoodgold]

For me, having a commitment to act isn't exactly it.

For me, a list of "next actions" is a list of opportunities, not a list of commitments. Some of them may be commitments.
David Allen says you can re-negotiate your agreements with yourself at any time. I think of it differently: I don't necessarily make an agreement with myself when I put an action on a list.

For me, the criterion is: do I want to be reminded of this?

 

[TesTeq]

I think - GTD system stores the results of my thinking.

How can you fully trust the system when it doesn't show you all of the possible options of what you might want to do?

My GTD system is not for showing me options. It safely stores the options that I have chosen. I think - GTD system stores the results of my thinking.

 

[Barb]

Yes

My GTD system is not for showing me options. It safely stores the options that I have chosen. I think - GTD system stores the results of my thinking.

I'd agree with this too. I've thought about something and put it on the list with an intention to act. If I want to just be reminded about something, it's in my tickler file, on someday/maybe, or on my calendar as an all-day event in the future.

 

[DenaDahilig]

I think - GTD system stores the results of my thinking.

Can I get an Amen! ?

 

[supergtdman]

My GTD system is not for showing me options. It safely stores the options that I have chosen. I think - GTD system stores the results of my thinking.

It's not a question of whether it stores the results of your thinking or not. Sure, it does.
Does it mean it makes it a complete system though? One doesn't necessarily cause the other.

 

[cwoodgold]

"complete" could mean it has all possible options.
"complete" could mean it has everything I've made a commitment to do.
"complete" could mean it has everything I've thought of that I've decided I want to be reminded of.
"complete" could mean it has a list of all English words starting with the letter "s" that mean some kind of locomotion by foot.

It depends on how you define your system.

 

[supergtdman]

"complete" could mean it has all possible options.
"complete" could mean it has everything I've made a commitment to do.
"complete" could mean it has everything I've thought of that I've decided I want to be reminded of.
"complete" could mean it has a list of all English words starting with the letter "s" that mean some kind of locomotion by foot.

It depends on how you define your system.

Good point.

I'm referring to David Allen's description, i.e.

There is a light year of difference between a system that has merely a lot of our commitments objectified and one that has 100% of the total. And few people have ever gotten to a totally empty head, with absolutely every project, action item, and potential agreement we have made with ourselves and others out and available in an easily reviewable format.

It's interesting though, that the one possible definition of commitment is:
"an engagement or obligation that restricts freedom of action".

this actually makes a lot of sense and hints why most people never add things that they naturally want to do (but also made agreement with themselves to do) on the lists.

You see, things that I **might want to do** are also kind of agreements with myself but they're not really commitments. They don't restrict freedom of action, they kind of add freedom.

For example replying to this thread was never on any of my lists and it's not really work that "showed up" either.

So yeah, in a way you could say that, as long as all of my commitments are in the system - then it's "complete".
But no system is ever going to show me absolutely everything I might want to do. And it's impossible to fully trust a system which is always just a reflection of my past commitments.

Most of the time I want to be in the present moment and to have as much freedom as possible instead of being restricted by my past commitments. GTD system actually helps me with that and I don't have to worry that anything is going to blow up on me and etc.
However this is also why I don't fully trust GTD system when it comes down to making action choices. I want to make choices in the present moment by taking into account **all** things I might want to do instead of choosing from a list of commitments made by my "past self".
In other words the GTD lists are there to help me but I don't actually live according to those lists.
Does this make sense?

I think David Allens means that you have to see all options when he says

Either your head is the best place to hold all your agreements with yourself, or it's not. (You can guess which way I vote.) I can't imagine any intellectual justification for halfway in between. Yet most people still have over half their life in their heads. And a partial system is almost worse than none. As a favorite mentor of mine is fond of reminding me from time to time, in regard to tracking and renegotiating life commitments in general, "99%'s a bitch, 100%'s a breeze.

Notice how he uses phrases like "people still have over half their life in their heads. And a partial system is almost worse than none."

But GTD **is** a partial system because in my view it's always a reflection of the past and doesn't 100% fit current reality. At least it can't be "complete" in the way David proposes it.
I don't think you can fit the whole life completely on the lists and get to absolutely empty head and so on. I think he overhypes GTD here, making it look like something it's not and could never be.
Life is too complex to completely 100% fit on the lists in an "easily reviewable format". (not to even mention keeping it up to date at all times)

 

[supergtdman]

If something doesn't really have your attention, there's really no need for it to be in your system. For instance, let's say I have a closet in a bedroom that is never used. And say that closet it full of stuff and the stuff is not used. If the stuff in the closet is not pulling at my attention in any way, there really is no need to capture anything about that closet into my system at the present time.

Now, let's say that closet starts to niggle at my brain just a tiny bit. I'm not ready to commit to any action about that closet, I just know that someday I probably want to think about it. I'd put an entry about it on "Someday/Maybe" and get the niggling to stop.

You want things on your lists so your attention is purposefully placed at the appropriate time. Errands to run when they need to be run, bills paid before they are due, travel arrangements made before it's too late, etc. So these things go on your active lists. You don't want your attention grabbed because you wake up one day, look at your calendar, and realize you really should be on a plane to see a customer in another city to make a presentation. Oops! Or get up to take a prescription medication only to realize you don't have any more and there are no refills. Oops! Attention grabbed.

If you make a regular practice of keeping things in your system (even if in someday/maybe) and not in your head, there really isn't endless capture left to be done. I'll get up early tomorrow to do my weekly review and I'll start that with a Mind Sweep. I would be very surprised if I come up with more than 5-6 new things--if I came up with nothing at all new, it wouldn't be the first time.

But if I have no commitment at all--to myself or anyone else--to take action on something in particular, it simply is not in my system. It may be on someday/maybe if the only commitment I have around it is to think about it again at some point, but that's it.

So unless I missed something....having a commitment to act is the missing ingredient in this thread so far. I apologize if I just didn't read far enough back or closely enough.

Attention is definitely an important ingredient.
However I don't necessarily want to be limited only to things which had my attention in the past. Sometimes I do but most of the time I don't. Sometimes I want to be open to all options.

Also something that didn't have my attention in the past isn't necessarily just "work that showed up". It might have been always there but I just missed/overlooked it. Also it might be a very important thing in the present but I'm going to miss it if I will focus only on the things which are on my GTD lists. Does this make sense?

This is why I think David Allen says

As a favorite mentor of mine is fond of reminding me from time to time, in regard to tracking and renegotiating life commitments in general, "99%'s a bitch, 100%'s a breeze.

Because in a way those GTD lists could create some kind of a limited narrow "tunnel vision" as well. The problem is of course that they are never truly 100% complete and can never be **fully** relied on anyway. According to the quote, it's always a bitch and never a breeze

 

[TesTeq]

No system is 100% current and complete.

But GTD **is** a partial system because in my view it's always a reflection of the past and doesn't 100% fit current reality. At least it can't be "complete" in the way David proposes it.

I think no system or thing exists that is 100% current and complete. All systems and things react with a delay to the changes in their environment. The opposite would violate the "cause and effect" principle (see Causality @Wikipedia and Causality (physics) @Wikipedia) developed and successfully used by such guys as Aristotle and Einstein.

For any GTD system this delay is guaranteed to be somewhere between 2 minutes (2 minute rule) to one week (worst case when you catch something during your Weekly Review).

I know no other personal productivity system that gives such guarantee.

 

[supergtdman]

I think no system or thing exists that is 100% current and complete. All systems and things react with a delay to the changes in their environment. The opposite would violate the "cause and effect" principle (see Causality @Wikipedia and Causality (physics) @Wikipedia) developed and successfully used by such guys as Aristotle and Einstein.

For any GTD system this delay is guaranteed to be somewhere between 2 minutes (2 minute rule) to one week (worst case when you catch something during your Weekly Review).

I know no other personal productivity system that gives such guarantee.

It's not just a delay that's the problem
It's impossible to pay attention to everything and take everything into account even at the weekly review.

As for

no system or thing exists that is 100% current and complete.

I agree. If you rely **only** on gtd lists to choose what to do then you're always stuck with out of date and limited list of options, it's similar to having a narrow "tunnel vision" so you are always missing out stuff. It's kind of ironic actually... and you'll never actually get to 100% complete anyway.

A quote from David Allen

My hat's off to you if you're trying to keep mental lists as reminders of things to do—but I'll bet those lists are not anywhere close to complete. Consequently they are putting enormous and unnecessary work on your psyche. If you don't have everything in a system that the system ought to have, there is still no full trust in that system, and minimum motivation to keep it up and keep it current.

I mean, ok, but the gtd itself is never "anywhere close to complete" either. And yeah, there is no "full trust in that system" either. As for "minimum motivation to keep it up and keep it current" - it depends on who you ask, I guess.

Another quote from David

If some projects have been identified, but there are many more that haven't been captured, you're never quite sure that something is not slipping through a crack somewhere. Because these inventories of to-do's are incomplete, they often create more pressure on us than they relieve. We will subliminally know that we don't have everything out in front of us, and we have a mistrust of the tools.

Something is **always** "slipping through a crack somewhere", regardless of tools and systems.

Life is not just either "work that showed up" or "predefined work", you know.
An example with radio - something is always being transmitted by the radio and when you turn it on and start listening - it's not like the radio waves just "showed up", they are always there. Internet is similar, heck the whole world is similar.

 

[cfoley]

But GTD doesn't limit you to doing stuff from your lists. In fact, it has a model for defining your work with three broad categories. Only one of those categories is doing stuff from your lists.

I'd love to know if you have found a solution to your problem. Do you have another system that you can trust because you do manage to include 100% in it? Or is there a different system you can trust because it doesn't revolve around 100%?

I think most people here accept that you can't collect 100% of commitments. You either have to settle for a lower number or adjust the definition of commitments to suit.

However, I think that quoting sections of David Allen's work and picking holes in his wording is bound to highlight inaccuracies and contradictions. After all, he is using natural language to communicate with humans. "Collect everything" really means "don't ignore things that keep distracting you from your work. Write them down!"

 

[supergtdman]

But GTD doesn't limit you to doing stuff from your lists. In fact, it has a model for defining your work with three broad categories. Only one of those categories is doing stuff from your lists.

And another category is "putting stuff on your lists"
The 3rd category is "Doing work as it shows up" which I've mentioned in my previous post.

I guess, if you'd call it "doing stuff which is not on the lists" then you'd get a complete system though but that's kind of silly because it's not really a special system anymore

I'd love to know if you have found a solution to your problem

There is no solution because you can't be perfect.

I have no problem with GTD but it's just not something that David Allen makes it look like it could be either. it's a not a fully trusted system on which you can fully rely and can never be. It's an improvement over daily to do lists but the real improvement comes from a different thinking process, i.e. you clarify clear outcomes and clear next actions instead of just "to do's" but that's almost all there is to it.

However, I think that quoting sections of David Allen's work and picking holes in his wording is bound to highlight inaccuracies and contradictions. After all, he is using natural language to communicate with humans. "Collect everything" really means "don't ignore things that keep distracting you from your work. Write them down!"

I'm not trying to find holes on purpose. It's just I recently got an email with his newsletter and the whole idea was about 100% complete system, and so I wanted to share my thoughts and discuss it. I can quote the whole thing, it's not going to matter because I'm not taking anything out of context

 

[supergtdman]

Actually here is how GTD is presented in a stickied "what is GTD" thread and on the
http://www.davidco.com/what_is_gtd.php

GTD® is the shorthand brand for "Getting Things Done®," the groundbreaking work-life management system by David Allen that provides concrete solutions for transforming overwhelm and uncertainty into an integrated system of stress-free productivity.

GTD is a powerful method to manage commitments, information, and communication. It is the result of thirty years of consulting services, private coaching, training, and organizational programs with millions of people internationally. It has earned a reputation as the gold standard in personal and organizational productivity.

GTD enables greater performance, capacity, and innovation. It alleviates the feeling of overwhelm, instilling focus, clarity, and confidence.

Step by step you will learn how to:

Capture anything and everything that has your attention and concern
Define actionable things into concrete next steps and successful outcomes
Organize information in the most streamlined way, in appropriate categories, based on how and when you need to access it
Keep current and “ahead of the game” with appropriately frequent reviews
Keep track of the bigger picture while managing the small details
Make trusted choices about what to do in any given moment

Decades of in-the-field research and practice of GTD led to the publishing of the international best-sellerGetting Things Done.
Published in over 28 languages, TIME magazine heralded it as "the defining self-help business book of its time."

Wouldn't it be much easier to explain GTD to someone if instead of trying to present it as some sort of an ultimate uber system with lots models and what not, you'd just say:

Look, there is a better way to organise your to do's, i.e.

Collect stuff into a separate place (an inbox) and then eventually clarify clear outcomes and clear next steps and add **that** to your "to do" lists instead. Don't just add just unclear amorphous stuff like "mum" or whatever to your actual to do's.
How you physically organise your to do's is up to you (GTD is tool agnostic). There are lots of apps but you can also use paper.
That's pretty much it.

David Allen kind of makes GTD look much more complex and elaborate than it actually is.
Then he also proposes that it can also be much more than what it actually is, i.e. a complete system, mind like water, that you can have an absolutely empty head and etc.

The truth is - it's not. And you can explain GTD in just a couple of sentences in a way in which much more people would actually **get** it instead of writing it off as something that's just too complicated for them or something that requires "too much work" and etc..
Just a thought...

There's no perfect productivity system.
you keep falling on your ass no matter how many inboxes you set up or mind dumps you do. The perfect is the enemy of the good, as the saying goes, so instead of giving up on GTD completely, take the parts that work for you and work them.

 

[TesTeq]

I've got my own tunnel...

I agree. If you rely **only** on gtd lists to choose what to do then you're always stuck with out of date and limited list of options, it's similar to having a narrow "tunnel vision" so you are always missing out stuff. It's kind of ironic actually... and you'll never actually get to 100% complete anyway.

I've got my own tunnel where all known issues are captured, processed and organized. I can go there to retrieve something to do. But I don't have to go there. I can go windsurfing not worrying that I will lose something.

And I really don't care what is stored in other tunnels!

 

[Oogiem]

If you rely **only** on gtd lists to choose what to do then you're always stuck with out of date and limited list of options, it's similar to having a narrow "tunnel vision" so you are always missing out stuff.

But you are missing the work as it shows up component of GTD practice.

Nothing in my world falls outside the GTD system, it's either work I have predefined, work as it shows up or thoughts I may move on later. So in my world GTD is a complete trusted system. Some times of the year 70% or more of my work is not pre-planned. SOme times it's almost 0%. That's just the nature of my life and I would argue the nature of everyone's life.

 

[Barb]

Getting it Done

I probably ticked 15 things off my list while you were arguing about whether this was a "perfect" system or not.

 

[CJSullivan]

Love it!

I probably ticked 15 things off my list while you were arguing about whether this was a "perfect" system or not.

Yes! My feeling is - if I do my weekly review every 7-10 days, then I'm only ever 7-10 days out-of-date... As David would say "Way ahead most of the rest of the planet!!!"

 

[supergtdman]

I probably ticked 15 things off my list while you were arguing about whether this was a "perfect" system or not.

And yet you still have 2000+ posts on this forum

 

[Barb]

Yep, I do

And yet you still have 2000+ posts on this forum

That's because GTD is an important Area of Focus for me and I enjoy the Forums and make the most of my Connect membership (I think I've been a Connect member about 5 years). It's by design.

On the other hand, I rarely watch t.v. and do things other people do to just pass time.