Is it really possible to have a complete system?

[jesig]

It's complete when it's off your mind

I've been reading this thread for days.

supergtdman (and why is that your username, if you're such a skeptic?), I feel like you're looking for a way to get off the hook for not having your system to "mind like water" status. Insisting that it's not possible to do allows you to feel okay about not getting there.

I would try harder to get there.

Having 100% of your commitments captured is a deeply personal goal, and one only you can tell if you've reached. But when you hit it, you'll know you've hit it.

Right now, my apartment is a mess, my physical inbox is six inches tall, I have something like 40 messages that dropped through the cracks in my gmail inbox, and my NA lists are full to bursting.

Yet I'm sitting here having a cup of coffee, browsing the internet, and petting my cat. Why? Because my system is complete. All the things that mean something to me are where they should be. I know that even though I haven't fully gone through my inbox, everything that might mean something is in my inbox; it's not scattered in fifty different places. Even though I still have 40 e-mails to go through, none of them are going to bite. And moreover, I know that I've captured all the things I need to process, so even though they aren't processed, it's no biggie. They're where they need to be.

Do I have an NA that says, "Browse internet, sip coffee, and pet cat?" Of course I don't. But I *can* do that by virtue of the fact that everything I'm committed to is captured in some way that I know it's not going to blow up. And further, I also know that what I'm doing now fulfills goals for me on higher levels--to be aware of gtd, to be a good pet owner, to slow down and enjoy life.

Completion doesn't mean that anything that could ever possibly exist anywhere at any time has been handled. It means that everything that has meaning to you is handled in such a way that you can get it off your mind.

There's a podcast I love to listen to from an event David did a few years back at the Philadelphia Public Library. And in it, there's this moment where this guy (voice sounds in his twenties, maybe, but I don't know) is trying to nail David down on how detailed he should be in defining his projects. And there's this hysterical, but very BFO moment for me as David is going back and forth with this kid.

GUY: "How do I know when I've defined all my projects?"
DAVID: "When it's off your mind."
GUY: "But what if I—"
DAVID: "When it's off your mind."
GUY: "But you could always make it smaller"
DAVID: "You get it to the point that it's off your mind."

(paraphrased, but you get the idea.)

Your system is complete when all the things that mean thing A are where things that mean A belong. Your system is complete when everything is off your mind. The lake isn't placid because it has captured every possible trajectory of any possible size rock that could be thrown into it. It is placid because the nature of water allows it to interact with everything from a pebble to a boulder, and then go back to calm.

 

[CJSullivan]

Most eloquent!

Right now, my apartment is a mess, my physical inbox is six inches tall, I have something like 40 messages that dropped through the cracks in my gmail inbox, and my NA lists are full to bursting.

Yet I'm sitting here having a cup of coffee, browsing the internet, and petting my cat. Why? Because my system is complete. All the things that mean something to me are where they should be.

That's it in a nutshell for me. You can either identify what your desired outcome is with GTD and work the system to get there as best as you can, or you can analyse GTD intellectually, looking for any chink in its armour. Would you rather be happy or right?

 

[Chas29]

But then how can you fully trust the system from day to day?

I'll play the Devil's advocate here...

You can "fully trust the system from day to day" once you have learned "how to capture everything that has your attention and concern."

You are essentially putting forth that it is impossible for you (or anyone) to capture everything that has your attention and concern.

You've mentioned in a previous post [essentially] that there are always a gazillion things that you could capture, but that you haven't captured. For the sake of argument, name one.

Once you have named one, I will then ask you, "Did this item have your attention and concern prior to this decision-making moment?" If the answer is yes, then I will have to ask you why you were unable to capture it.

If the answer is no, then David Allen's case rests: His system can be trusted because the current decision you are making is being based on the fact that you have captured everything that has your attention and concern.

Chas29

 

[mcogilvie]

That's it in a nutshell for me. You can either identify what your desired outcome is with GTD and work the system to get there as best as you can, or you can analyse GTD intellectually, looking for any chink in its armour. Would you rather be happy or right?

Well said!

 

[bishblaize]

What a fascinating thread!

My own view is this.

1) As many have commented, 100% up to date is a snapshot moment, coming straight after a review. And probably a monthly or even annual review at that. I dont even review my entire SDMB list every week. I dont need to be reminded of things to do when I move back up North in 5 years time, but I like the list anyway. Only a few times a year do I absolutely go through every single possible thing Ive thought of, and hence only then am I "current".

2) There's 100% and there's 100%. Could I include reviewing thoughts on what to do after I retire in my weekly review (I'm 32 now) - sure could. By not doing, am I affecting my ability to be maximally effective this week this month this year? Not at all.

3) The natural limit for ease and control is not in fact GTD, its what you can physically and mentally do. GTD and your computer can handle 10,000 projects and 10,000,000 Next Actions. You can't. So if there's a problem with being able to be complete and current, its more likely that there is a finite amount of time and at some point you have to call it a day and say 'thats enough'.

This will probably clarify nothing of course, but thats my view nonetheless.

 

[DenaDahilig]

This will probably clarify nothing of course, but thats my view nonetheless.

Actually, yes it did! And I especially like your use of the word "snapshot". I think of my finances in that regard... you can't actually finish them so my accountant gets a year-end snapshot of where my business is at 11:59pm on December 31st to work from.

And I also like your point about saying, "that's enough." We won't be done with our things to do until we die! And even then some of our stuff probably moves to someone else's to do list! So, yes, at some point, daily, we say enough.

Dena

 

[cwoodgold]

However this is also why I don't fully trust GTD system when it comes down to making action choices.

Oh, when David Allen talks about a "trusted system" I assume he doesn't mean fully trusting the system when making action choices. If I used only my systems for making action choices I might never eat lunch. When I think of a "trusted system" what I mean is that after I've written something in it, then I'm confident that I'll review it at an appropriate time and take care of it if appropriate (i.e. unless I'm generally busy doing more important things than it). Therefore I can relax and not worry about that particular item. The system might have only some more important things that collectively take up only a fraction of my time, but it's complete if there's nothing else I feel a need to particularly make an effort to remember to do: nothing else that I'll feel disappointed if I forgot to do.

In "Priority Management" I was taught the difference between "A" and "B" priority items like this: if, at the end of the day, you would think "Oh, I guess I didn't have time to do that. That's too bad." then it's a B; but if you would think "Oh, rats! I forgot to do that!" then it's an A. There's a somewhat similar difference (but at a different threshold) between things that I put in the system and things I choose not to record.

 

[TesTeq]

Can you trust your bank statement?

Actually, yes it did! And I especially like your use of the word "snapshot". I think of my finances in that regard... you can't actually finish them so my accountant gets a year-end snapshot of where my business is at 11:59pm on December 31st to work from.

Oh, what a great analogy!

Can you trust your bank statement? A paper or even an on-line document prepared by your bank. They create it, deliver it and you read it. But in the meantime you may receive your salary and some standing orders may be paid.

Do you still trust your bank statement? Is it up to date? 100%?

GTD lists are your life statement at a given moment.

 

[treelike]

I trust my GTD system a hell of a lot more than anything my bank sends me

 

[rightbrain]

I've been having a bit of a capturing crisis

have you tried using a mobile phone to capture your thoughts/things......iuse a video format........and its amazing ..........i have even managed to capture my midnight dreams ........that i though were interesting at the time.

There are times when I go to process my inbox and find that I have done a lot of it already.

ha.ha......ive been there..........and i decided to stick with a motto.

THINK-DRAW-DO...........its one of my gtd principles.

never do anything without writing it down on a piece of paper.
once you have done the deed.....dump the piece of paper into your inbox to be processed the next morning.................

the morning after....when you come to the piece of paper again....process it.ie...either you will trash it or it will suggest the next action in line.

 

[CJSullivan]

Why video?

have you tried using a mobile phone to capture your thoughts/things......iuse a video format........and its amazing ..........

When you say you use a video format - do you mean you video yourself capturing your thoughts, etc.? Just wondering! What does the video give you that a simple audio capture wouldn't (besides the obvious!)... I'm curious because I don't ever really like to see myself on video (especially with the perspective the mobile phone usually gives!)...

 

[cfoley]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have used audio capture before but never video. I find audio difficult to process, often needing to be transcribed first, and while video might be a bit better, I can't imagine it will be as good as paper.

I do use use my android to capture, reluctantly and only when there isn't a pen and paper around. After I unlock it and open whatever app I want to capture in, I have often thought of something else and lost the original item I was going to capture. When I start capturing, I often get inspired to capture more and paper is the best format for me. I can put totally different things on separate pages. I can brainstorm or mind map or even draw diagrams if I want to.

Although I'm very computer-orientated, I don't like digital capture except maybe for photographs. There is something about a captured item also being an object that makes me more inclined to process it.

 

[supergtdman]

I would argue that I have much more captured and better organised than most people, very likely even better compared to David Allen himself. I can organise lots of data very quickly and with little effort because I have spent a lot of time researching how to do it and set up tools and processes to make it as convenient as possible and automated as much as possible. Obviously David Allen's GTD system itself in isolation doesn't cut it.
I use GTD system but in addition to that I do all kinds of life logging, i.e. I track everything I eat, my health stats data, sleep, excercise, all my expenses, write a journal, capture daily pictures and sometimes videos, etc. I capture most of most of my thoughts and ideas, I say **most** because sometimes I get many thoughts flowing very quickly and it's impossible to capture them all even on audio/video.
You could argue that it's all just "general reference" but in practice you can't just file everything non actionable into some arbitrary categories and organise everything with a single label or whatever as David Allen suggests. That's not going to work. There is much more to this than that if you really want to keep all of the data really conveniently and easily usable. So there are in practice lots of sub-systems to manage every aspect of your life.

My point is that from my experience the more objective data you have and the more you know - the more you realise how much stuff you actually just **don't know** at all. I'm not just a skeptic, I'm a critical thinker, I don't think in black and white. A lot of people here just pointlessly defend the GTD system and whatever.
I'm perfectly fine with GTD the way it is. It's not anywhere close to being complete though, that's all I wanted to point out. Yes, you could say that doing stuff which is not on the lists is also a part of GTD, and call all of it "work that showed up". It's too simple however and that's really just an excuse because not everything that's not on the lists is going to just **show up** and grab your attention at some point. I mean the best thing for you to do in any moment could be something you have no idea about at all whatsoever. It's not going to just **show up**, the option is always there but you just don't see it. I'm not talking about not having stuff like "sip coffee", "eat lunch" and etc. on the lists which don't really matter, I'm talking about stuff which could be life changing.

Anyway all I'm saying is that GTD is presented as something much more elaborate than what it really is by David Allen, all it really is - are just lists with reminders. Those lists alone are not going to give you "mind like water" state. They're not going to show you all possible options of what you might want to do. They can't be fully trusted. They can't be complete. They do help sometimes but that's all.

You could have all of your reminders externalised on the lists and still stay stressed and not know what to do because you still can't have enough data to make the best choice. Sometimes you can't even make a good choice, sometimes you can't solve some critical problems even when you have lots of knowledge, all of the money in the world, lots of experts giving you the best advice they can, and etc. Sometimes you just don't know.

 

[cfoley]

My point is that from my experience the more objective data you have and the more you know - the more you realise how much stuff you actually just **don't know** at all.

While I haven't tried to capture as much as you, I'd have to say my experience of other domains is similar. The deeper you get in an area of expertise, the more unexplored avenues you find.

A lot of people here just pointlessly defend the GTD system and whatever.

I'd agree here too. It's natural to defend something you have invested into either emotionally or financially. We have all invested emotionally. It's a big commitment to get GTD set up in the first place but to stick with it for years, as most of us have done, is a deeper level of commitment. Anyone with a Connect membership is financially invested and any staff members are invested in GTD on a much deeper emotional level and are financially dependant on it. (ironically, the staff seem less likely to blindly defend GTD on this forum. You'll notice that none have replied to this thread.)

I'm reading Making it all Work at the moment. I'm about half way through the book but one aspect of GTD that has been highlighted pretty strongly is the need to balance control with perspective. These are what David Allen called horizontal and vertical in the first book but these new labels seem more descriptive to me.

We haven't talked about perspective in this thread so I don't know how organised you are at the 20,000--50,000 foot levels. I know I'm very disorganised on those levels. I thought I had a good GTD system set up. Turns out I had done all the control parts from capturing and processing through to Do-ing, and none of the perspective parts.

You talked about your health so I'm going to run with that example. Maintaining a good health is probably on a lot of people's 50,000 foot life and visions list. When we imagine our futures, we all implicitly assume there have been no major health setbacks.

A couple of years ago, I needed to lose some weight. I tracked my calories, weighed in every day and logged my runs. This was in my pre-GTD days but now, I would call it a project. I did have a wild success envisaged, and I achieved it. Not only did I lose those pounds but it had the positive knock on effect on every part of my live that I hoped it would.

But now I'm just ticking over. I do weigh in but not every day. When I run, I like to see how far I've gone but I don't need to log it and counting calories is a thing of the past. My health is the way I want it so I monitor just enough so that if I start slipping, I'll catch it.

Is my good health any less important to me? Of course not! It's a hell of a lot more important to me than my job or my house or my cat, but I spend more time collecting, processing and doing on those areas of focus than I do my health.

I don't know about your circumstances but weighing in and charting runs sound to me more like completing actions than collecting what's on your mind. I don't know how much you have analysed your perspective on areas of focus, etc. If your health is where you want it, I bet you could spend your time better easing off on the data gathering to concentrate on something different.

When David Allen talks about capturing everything and putting 100% into a system, I don't think he means it as literally as you are taking it. Remember his audience. He is writing for people who have not yet embraced GTD, people who track projects and actions in their heads. He is trying to get people to lose the reluctance to write things down to capture the trivial things like bread and milk and the difficult things like relationship problems.

You could spend 100% of your time scribbling frantically to keep up with a stream of consciousness and still not be able to write fast enough to get it all. I don't think anyone is disputing that and I don't think anyone is advocating it either, not even David Allen when he suggests capturing 100% of everything is a system.

 

[cwoodgold]

Hi, supergtdman. You quoted material from GTD saying among other things "the groundbreaking work-life management system" and "Capture anything and everything that has your attention and concern". You also said:

Wouldn't it be much easier to explain GTD to someone if instead of trying to present it as some sort of an ultimate uber system with lots models and what not, you'd just say ...

and you also said in a later post, "Anyway all I'm saying is that GTD is presented as something much more elaborate than what it really is by David Allen, ..."

(Begin preamble) That's fine ... and it's just that I disagree with you, and if you keep saying things I disagree with then I might keep posting to state my disagreement. I've also posted things on this forum disagreeing with things David Allen has said. I'm a bit like the character in this xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/386/ I'm sorry if you feel outnumbered, because a lot of people are disagreeing with you on this thread. I'm certainly not intending to make you uncomfortable.

However, you're making a statement about another human being (happens to be David Allen in this case) which is a bit on the negative side, so I feel compelled to come to that person's defense, as I would come to yours or to another participants' on this forum if the situation were reversed. Again, sorry for any discomfort this may cause you. Unfortunately if you want us to stop saying things like this you might have to just stop repeating the ideas we disagree with, even if it's unpleasant for you to leave some of our statements unanswered. I'm not sure what other solution there is. I hope that actually you're having fun participating in this thread.

Different people have different opinions and in this sort of thing there's no single objectively true answer as there may be in mathematics. You may see things differently than others do. I'm not necessarily trying to change your opinion, but I'm stating mine. (End preamble.)

I disagree with the statement "GTD is presented as something much more elaborate than what it really is". Perhaps what you mean is that the material you quoted earlier ("groundbreaking", etc.) is presented in very positive terms, like an advertisement. I think it is. I can see how this might be annoying to some people. However, I also think it's perfectly accurate. Your statement seems to me to be claiming that it isn't accurate. I don't think you've quoted a single statement by the GTD people that isn't accurate and reasonable in my opinion, and I haven't noticed specific arguments by you explaining why you disagree with specific statements (if you do).

I disagree with "... presented as some sort of ultimate uber system..." "ultimate" means final. You haven't quoted anything that makes any such claim. It says "...the result of thirty years ..."; this doesn't mean it can't be improved.

Your short explanation of GTD completely leaves out some elements of GTD that I consider important, of which some examples are: the "physical" in identifying a physical action; sorting by priority; sorting by context before sorting by priority; the steps in the natural planning system.

I think the nub of the disagreement on this thread revolves around statements
like "Capture anything and everything that has your attention and concern".
Since you log a lot of things, it seems possible to me that most people are able
to capture anything and everything that has their attention and concern,
but that for you to do that isn't feasible because you're interested in and
concerned about a lot more things than most people. So maybe a 100% complete
system in the sense of GTD is possible for most people but not possible for you.
I'm just speculating.

I think actually it's stated a little too simply: perhaps it should be
"Capture anything and everything that has enough of your attention and concern
to be worth the time it takes to write it down, review it, eventually erase it etc."
I think that's what it actually means: I think most people would read
"attention and concern" as meaning more than a teensy, weensy momentary
bit of attention and concern.

For example: I stopped to read a poster where someone was asking for
a math and reading tutor for a child. It was fun for me to read it. If I weren't
working full-time, I might like to contact them and do the tutoring;
I enjoy that sort of thing.
However, I didn't record the phone number, because the chances that
I would actually decide that I want to do it are low enough that I considered it not worth the
effort of recording and storing the phone number. The chances
are extremely low but not quite zero that sometime in the next few
weeks I might decide I want to. (I do record other numbers
where the chances are low but not quite that low.)
So, it had my attention and concern but not enough
to be worth recording. I think the person who wrote
"Capture anything and everything that has your attention and concern"
didn't mean record things like that, and that most people reading
it wouldn't understand it to include things like that. Maybe you're
taking it very literally and understanding it to include things like
that, which would not be good advice ... i.e. to spend time writing
things that one thinks aren't worth taking the time to write.

 

[TesTeq]

I trust my capture choices.

I disagree with "... presented as some sort of ultimate uber system..." "ultimate" means final. You haven't quoted anything that makes any such claim. It says "...the result of thirty years ..."; this doesn't mean it can't be improved.

I've heard David Allen saying that there are no plans for "Getting Things Done" (GTD) second edition because GTD is as simple and as complex as it should be and it is already described in the book.

For example: I stopped to read a poster where someone was asking for a math and reading tutor for a child. It was fun for me to read it. If I weren't working full-time, I might like to contact them and do the tutoring; I enjoy that sort of thing. However, I didn't record the phone number, because the chances that I would actually decide that I want to do it are low enough that I considered it not worth the effort of recording and storing the phone number. The chances are extremely low but not quite zero that sometime in the next few weeks I might decide I want to. (I do record other numbers where the chances are low but not quite that low.) So, it had my attention and concern but not enough to be worth recording.

I like this example. I simply trust my capture choices too.

 

[cwoodgold]

I've heard David Allen saying that there are no plans for "Getting Things Done" (GTD) second edition because GTD is as simple and as complex as it should be and it is already described in the book.

That's fine; however, producing a work and stating that one has no plans to improve on it is not the same thing as claiming that one's work is "ultimate". Many authors publish books without publishing later revised editions, for example; this is not the same thing as presenting one's work as an "ultimate uber system".

I like this example. I simply trust my capture choices too.

Thanks! One way to put it is: my system is complete when I've captured everything I considered worth capturing.

 

[rightbrain]

When you say you use a video format - do you mean you video yourself capturing your thoughts, etc.? Just wondering! What does the video give you that a simple audio capture wouldn't (besides the obvious!)... I'm curious because I don't ever really like to see myself on video (especially with the perspective the mobile phone usually gives!)...

i video objects in the context for the thoughts i want to capture.......i never video myself...........

if i get an idea in a supermarket .........by looking at something.....then its easy to
come back to that thought ......6 month down the line if its video rather than audio...and i have to talk less......a picture is worth a thousand words.

another advantage is my mobile creates a thumbnail of the first thing i shoot with the video.........so i can sort my videos via thumbnails.........

 

[CJSullivan]

i video objects in the context for the thoughts i want to capture.......i never video myself...........

if i get an idea in a supermarket .........by looking at something.....then its easy to
come back to that thought ......6 month down the line if its video rather than audio...and i have to talk less......a picture is worth a thousand words.

another advantage is my mobile creates a thumbnail of the first thing i shoot with the video.........so i can sort my videos via thumbnails.........

Oh! I get it! Neat idea. I do take pictures of stuff pretty regularly and then file in Evernote, but I'll have to try the video idea. I can capture that in Evernote too, and have my thoughts about said object along with it... Thanks!