London Times - Is self-help a scam?

[kewms]

Actually, making "assumptions" in CBT is called "Mind Reading" and that can lead to erroneous conclusions!
If you are asking me if I am pulling this out of my ass, the answer is no.

It looked like a simple yes or no question to me. No need to get so defensive.

Are you trained and licensed as a therapist?

Do you work as a therapist?

Katherine

 

[ActionGirl]

Coaching works if it works for you. The problem is, and this is my experience, is that coaches wade into the murky waters of therapy...and they're not trained to do that. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

You are probably right about many "life-coaches." But it seems to me that many different approaches to therapy may have value in the right circumstances. The problem most people face (insurance problems aside) is understanding the various options and trying to assess both the approach and the individual therapist.

CBT...brief solution focused therapy etc., are effective the way good parental advice are effective. But in my personal and professional life, they don't cut it visavis deeper, more complex issues. These "new therapies" have more to do with pleasing insurance companies (because they're brief...less expensive) and our insatiable need for "quick fixes" than they do for lasting change.

If "brief solution focused therapy" works for a particular person for a particular problem, then it may be the best kind. Does the research show that CBT is only a "quick fix" and the changes do not last for most people? I was under the impression that it is, in fact, effective in the long term for many people, and especially with the specific kinds of problems mentioned earlier. Part of the approach is to teach people to monitor their own behavior and apply CB techniques as needed. Maybe it does resemble "self-parenting," but what exactly is wrong with that?

Nothing beats (so long as the issues you're dealing with aren't related to full blown mental illness i.e. bi-polar disorder) the long term, transference/counter-transference relationship of a depth therapy.

What do you mean by "long-term transference/counter-transference" and "depth therapy?"

Also, how do you know when the patient is "cured," if that's the right term?

 

[shtriemel]

It looked like a simple yes or no question to me. No need to get so defensive.

Are you trained and licensed as a therapist?

Do you work as a therapist?

Katherine

I'm not surprised by Cosmo's response. There's a huge interest in quick fix therapy (and yes, CBT fall into this category - this isn't to say that CBT isn't effective for something like phobias and/or trauma, because it is) for the reasons I mentioned. As a graduate student, I was exposed to a number of different systems and psychodynamic therapy happened to ring true for me. As a client of therapy, I've tried coaching, supportive therapy, CBT (by the director of the CBT program at the Jewish General Hospital in Montreal) and psychodynamic therapies. My practical experience reinforced my theoretical agreements with the effectiveness of depth therapy over other therapies.

As a therapist, I utilize an abridged form of psychodynamic therapy. I've been trained in CBT and brief solution focused therapies, and I find them poor substitutes for psychodynamic therapy. Unfortunately, insurance companies are only willing to cover 6-8 sessions of therapy (if you're lucky, 2-3 months), just enough time to get to know your client and wish them good luck on their journey. A very sad state of affairs.

 

[shtriemel]

What do you mean by "long-term transference/counter-transference" and "depth therapy?"

Also, how do you know when the patient is "cured," if that's the right term?

I mean it takes time for the repeatition of issues that occurs in a clients life, outside of the therapy office, to occur within the session. And then the real work begins... With respect to transference/counter-transference...a google search will reveal what these things are and how they heal.

Re "cured"...none of us is every "cured" of ourselves. We merely learn to manage our uniqueness, good and bad, better than we did the day before. The whole "cure" thing has got us into this pharmacological mess we're in, whereby some folks believe that all we are is random neurotransmitters firing incorrectly. A damn shame IMHO.

 

[ActionGirl]

Wow, google brings up many sites that I doubt you would want to represent your views or your profession! (I'm sure there's good stuff out there too, but I don't have time to find it now.) My favorite is the term paper for sale:
_____
Paper #058896 :: Counter-Transference and Professional Misconduct - Buy and instantly download this paper now

An analysis of counter-transference and professional misconduct in a therapist-patient relationship.

2,675 words, 15 sources, APA, $ 69.95 USD
_____

funny on so many levels

ETA: I put "cured" in quotes because one criticism often made of psychotherapy is that it can go on for years at great financial benefit to the therapist, but little progress for the patient. What I mean is, how do you (or the patient) know when to end the therapy? Or is therapy ideally something many (all?) of us should have continuously throughout our lifetimes?

 

[shtriemel]

funny on so many levels

ETA: I put "cured" in quotes because one criticism often made of psychotherapy is that it can go on for years at great financial benefit to the therapist, but little progress for the patient. What I mean is, how do you (or the patient) know when to end the therapy? Or is therapy ideally something many (all?) of us should have continuously throughout our lifetimes?

Yeah, Googling is always an interesting experience.

My girlfriend is a 2nd year psychiatry resident and criticisms of her profession i.e. overuse of meds, etc., are well known. Same is true for lawyers, surgeons, accountants, priests, rabbis etc. The question isn't which profession doesn't have any flaws, it's which professional you feel safe and comfortable working with.

When your symptoms become more manageable, you know something is going right. And this takes time. So yes, if you can't find a psychiatrist or an MD who does talking therapy...the alternative can be quite costly. There's many organizations that offer a sliding scale, however, they're slowly restricting the amount of sessions you can obtain.

When Freud was asked how long one should access therapy, he replied: "A lifetime". By this he meant, that working on ourselves is a life long process. And during key moments i.e. birth, death of a parent, marriage, etc., many of us tend to regress to earlier, less effective ways of coping with stress, intimacy, etc.

And before the anti-freudians get all up in arms...Freud was known to raise money for patients who couldn't afford therapy and his daughter, Anna Freud provided free therapy for her child/adolescent clients.

 

[CosmoGTD]

In order to figure out if any therapy or self-help system works, "arguments from authority" don't cut it, and neither do personal anecdotes. What happens is people get "indoctrinated" into their specific school of therapy, and then through the "confirmation bias" over time their viewpoint becomes totally biased.
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Many of these different schools of therapy even directly conflict with each other, so they all can't be correct. The reason why various therapists are so threatened by CBT and REBT, is that its theories directly contradict their theories and practices, and this is obviously quite upsetting to their belief structure.

What is needed to overcome this are careful scientific studies done in many different areas by objective people. These studies have been going on for many decades now, and the facts are very clear, to anyone who takes the time to look at them.

There are hundreds of careful scientific studies showing the high efficacy of cognitive therapy. This web-page has a list summary of its efficacy in over 300 studies, for various disorders.

http://www.beckinstitute.org/FolderID/194/SessionID/{07878EAA-951A-47B4-AA1E-E226017907E7}/PageVars/Library/InfoManage/Guide.htm

or

http://tinyurl.com/87zzv

The claim that CBT is "superficial" is simply false. If one studies the literature one can see that CBT has been applied successfully in many serious psychological issues. REBT also involves profound philosophical, behavioral and emotive changes, and CBT is really all about modifying your core beliefs and "schemas". Just because someone says CBT is "superficial" does not make it true. This criticism is the main one from the psychoanalysts, and is suitably vague, and has also been refuted in detail many times by the main leaders in cognitive therapy, like Dr. Aaron Beck.
One just needs to look at the evidence, the facts, and the proof.

As a matter of fact, a very recent study showed that CBT was very effective in helping to prevent repeat suicide attempts.
"Cognitive therapy effective in preventing repeat suicide attempts"
http://i-newswire.com/pr40748.html
CBT also deal with core beliefs, and all forms of behavior, and the entire spectrum of the emotional disorders. If anything, it is much more comprehensive than most other forms of therapy.

I am not going to get into the Therapy Wars, as that is off-topic for this forum. If people want to get engaged in long-term psycho-dynamic psychoanalytic therapies, then it is their life and their mind, and their money, knock yourself out. But I personally think its a really bad idea, and could very well make their problems worse, as Freudian style psychotherapy has been shown again and again to cause serious damage to people, and can even wreck your life. But c'est la vie, whatever floats your boat.

But if I see factual inaccuracies being put forward about CBT-REBT, and things of this nature, then I am going to correct them.
As far as CBT only being 6-8 sessions that is another factual error. There are brief courses of therapy for certain conditions, and I have already said, there are courses of cognitive therapy that can go for months, and even years, and there are even "tune-ups" that can extend far into the future. Transference and a strong therapeutic relationship are also a part of CBT. The length of these therapies emerged out of what was shown to be most effective in the research, and not just due to reducing the cost of therapy to make it more accessible to more people. Having a spectrum of therapy is actually a good thing, as then there are more resources to help more people. Freud said "analysis was only for the rich", and that is not something to defend.
I personally think its a good idea for there to be time limits on therapy, as in the bad old days, people could keep people in therapy for YEARS a couple of times a week, with no improvement, even in many cases getting much worse.
There was no scientific accountability whatsoever.

 

[shtriemel]

In order to figure out if any therapy or self-help system works, "arguments from authority" don't cut it,

So the answer to my question is...no you're not a therapist. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[shtriemel]

The claim that CBT is "superficial" is simply false.

Cosmo,
During graduate studies and advanced training at my last counseling gig I was trained using various methods of CBT techniques. Moreover, I attended 4 months of CBT done by the director for cognitive/behavioral studies at McGill University/Jewish General Hospital. What part of "superficial" do you not understand?

I'm aware that you're very good at Googling...now please provide some folks on this boards with some sort of credentials so that they know you're not merely talking out of your bum, but from experience i.e. tried both psychodynamic therapy AND cognitive therapy...or are trained as a therapist. If you can't, I'm sure I can spent 5-10 min on Google providing links to a whole whack of sites debunking your links. Gotta love the internet, huh?

CBT is perfect for a generation of folk who'd rather ignore the space between the lines, pop a pill, develop some quick breathing exercises and watch their symptoms disappear...for a month or so. And then they return. And then what? Between CBT and family docs who over prescribe SSRI's, I had my work cut out for me.

 

[ActionGirl]

CBT is perfect for a generation of folk who'd rather ignore the space between the lines, pop a pill, develop some quick breathing exercises and watch their symptoms disappear...for a month or so. And then they return. And then what? Between CBT and family docs who over prescribe SSRI's, I had my work cut out for me.

GTD seems to offer mostly behavioral and cognitive suggestions for dealing with stresses most people face on a daily basis. Most people who post here have tried these and have found at least some of the suggestions helpful, so it's hardly surprising to find this board favorable on balance to CBT, whatever they may think other psychological approaches.

So, what do you make of GTD?
-- Sham?
-- Nonsense on stilts?
-- Helpful for some mundane problems?

If you've tried to implement some of the ideas, what was the outcome? What is the general take on GTD among psychotherapists, (if it's something you've ever heard your colleagues discuss)?

 

[shtriemel]

GTD seems to offer mostly behavioral and cognitive suggestions for dealing with stresses most people face on a daily basis.

In general, pills and techniques that promote the status quo i.e. dealing with stresses most people face..., contribute to the overall problem. And if you don't know what I'm refering to, well, that's a problem in itself. Let me explain...

Before my graduate studies in counseling, I obtained a biz degree with a major in marketing. Our advertising prof, in an attempt to both frighten and titilate us with wacky world of advertising, told us he missed his first born due to a product launch that was taking place the next day. My classmates oohed and awwwed. I felt sick.

What is normal is not necessairly healthy. If you peruse this BB, it's shocking to read how out of control people's lives have become, and how they lean on GTD to bring some tranquility to it all. Makes you wanna slap 'em and say...HEY BUDDY, HOW ABOUT A LIFESTYLE CHANGE?

I've read and implemented parts of GTD. There's some decent ideas, particularily turning vague notions/ideas into doable objectives.

IMHO however, Barbara Sher has cornered this market, many years ago, with Wishcraft. Still it doesn't hurt to tweak the system every now and again.

 

[shtriemel]

What is the general take on GTD among psychotherapists, (if it's something you've ever heard your colleagues discuss)?

My girlfriend is a psychiatry resident and has never heard of GTD...Covey etc. Nor have her professors. My colleagues don't even know about this world. And I feel it's a shame. Insight is crucial to understand the roots of our struggles/pain. But it's not enought. Good friends/family...exercise, eating well, humility, and the development of proper goal setting/implementing is crucial as well.

However I feel that Allen lacks poetry and song and is way...WAY to geared to white collar management types who need less organizing, and more lifestyle changes to deal with the "stresses of everyday living".

 

[ActionGirl]

I don't think you have enough information about the people who post here to make such sweeping generalizations. While I have seen a couple of posts here that make me wonder about about people's priorites, I see many more that address the ways people are trying to find ways to devote more time and energy to the people and passions in their lives, mostly family matters, but also concerning their faith or pursuit of music, etc.

What makes you think you think David Allen (or anyone here) lacks poetry and song in his life? Because it's not in his book? I didn't buy his book to hear about his take on poetry, (though he does give some hints about his own spiritual quests, etc.). I have my own preferences on poetry, thank you very much!

 

[shtriemel]

What makes you think you think David Allen (or anyone here) lacks poetry and song in his life?

Simple...I've read GTD and listened to Ready for Anything. Sounds like a cheerleader for the working drone. Worse, I heard him interviewed on a podcast, and when confronted with the problems with his system, he seemed quite cocky and defensive visavis why WE can't do HIS system. Feh. It's a too dry and a much too left brained for this creative/freudian type.

BTW...I checked out a couple of your posts...like this one:
http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?p=29260#post29260
Sounds like a bunch of people trying to figure out what David is saying. Hmmmm. I thought this system was suppossed to make life easier...less anxious etc. Personally, I felt my anxiety going up...up...up with each page turn of GTD. Again, this is just my personal experience. Though I highly doubt I'm alone.

 

[ActionGirl]

Okay. I can see how that gives you such insight into my life. :roll:

 

[shtriemel]

Okay. I can see how that gives you such insight into my life. :roll:

Is that you or is that not you, and other's like you, discussing GTD like it's some esoteric form of Kaballah? Sounds like it to me. And anything that is suppossed to make you breathe easier, yet provoke long BB discussions about what the author is trying to convey, doesn't sound like an anxiety reducer to me. And it's funny, because a quick peruse of posts on this site ask the very questions you're asking...over, and over, and over again. If the system is so simple, why do people seem so confused over how to do it? I'm truly curious.

 

[shtriemel]

ActionGirl,
Is responding to my posts a N/A? Because it would seem to me that it's a huge waste of time to do so. Shouldn't you be busy implementing your N/A? And isn't that the problem with the system i.e. WE'RE HUMAN. And GTD tries to sell you a system that's better suited for the working ant. That's all I'm saying. And clearly, by responding to my posts, you're proving my point. Again, I beg you, please get back to your N/A. David would be proud.

 

[sablouwho]

I heard [David Allen] interviewed on a podcast, and when confronted with the problems with his system, he seemed quite cocky and defensive visavis why WE can't do HIS system. Feh. It's a too dry and a much too left brained for this creative/freudian type.

After reading only part of GTD and listening to snippets of a David that I downloaded from somewhere on his web site (it had to do with the GTD Add-in) I had similar concerns.

But I decided to give it a try nonetheless, and attended his newly revamped public seminar three weeks ago. In person, the impression I had of David was anything but cocky and left-brained. He showed up some of his mind-maps, he is definitely a creative guy. This was a surprise as I was expecting him to be way more "serious" and "corporate-sounding" from having listened to that recording.

Funny that you mention Barbara Sher. I really like, how in Wishcraft, she teaches how to "backtime" (my word) things to get to from where we are to where we want to be. But I have to say, for me, personally that GTD has really made huge improvements in my ability to DO what Barbara suggests in a way that an easily-distracted, idea person like myself could not only grasp, but run with.

I was a Franklin Covey user for several years, and I have to say, David is by comparison a breathe of fresh air.

 

[shtriemel]

Funny that you mention Barbara Sher. I really like, how in Wishcraft, she teaches how to "backtime" (my word) things to get to from where we are to where we want to be. But I have to say, for me, personally that GTD has really made huge improvements in my ability to DO what Barbara suggests in a way that an easily-distracted, idea person like myself could not only grasp, but run with.

I was hoping for the same thing...and was very disapointed. What I prefer about Sher is that she allows you to be where you be...get it? No huge life changes...system enhancements etc. That's why New Year's resolutions always fail. And that's why so many on this BB are struggling to do what David says is so easy to do. It ain't easy. And it ain't clear. And the proof is in the postings.

 

[sablouwho]

I was hoping for the same thing...and was very disapointed.

Your comment reminds me of something Barbara Sher said at speaking engagement that I went to in order to support a friend. She said one of the reasons she'd written so many books was that different people would "get" her message in different ways. (I have read more than one of her books, and Wishcraft resonated more for me than some of the others). So, perhaps GTD just isn't resonating for you. Which is fine, it doesn't have to. It is valid for people if they find it useful, and it not, then, it doesn't, and that's the end of the road.

What I prefer about Sher is that she allows you to be where you be...get it? No huge life changes...system enhancements etc..

Ah, yes, that is indeed something nice about Wishcraft. In that regard I feel like DA's book is aimed at a different audience.

That's why New Year's resolutions always fail. And that's why so many on this BB are struggling to do what David says is so easy to do. It ain't easy. And it ain't clear. And the proof is in the postings.

FWIW, I actually have kept some New Year's resolutions that I have made in the past few years. My "trick" is that I give myself a head start and begin to think about them in the Fall and get started early, so that I wake up on Jan 1 with the habit already having been done. But I don't just do this once a year, it is an on-going thing.

Also, my interpretation of many (but not all) of the posts are that people are looking for "hacks." Just quickie little tidbits of information on how to tweak stuff, like dealing with software, or figuring out something that has to do with work in progress (paper stuff) or whatever. With so many different software programs out there, so many different PDA's and PPC's, and so many different ways to deal with handling the specifics of paperwork, that I think this BB serves a useful purpose in being a place for people to share ideas.

I haven't found implementing GTD to be difficult, or unclear, but then it is also very possible that I really got "jumpstarted" by taking David's seminar--the seminar made it VERY clear, after it was done I couldn't wait to get cracking! Before I took the seminar I wasn't quite as motivated to implement based on the book alone, nor were things quite as clear, but that is solely my experience of it, it may not be applicable to others.

Indeed there are DEFINITELY some posts that pose questions that, in my view, are clearly answered in the book. Much of the time, I have found that the person asking the question turns out not to have read the book (or not finished) or not to have tried to implement anything, so that they are asking their questions in a vacuum of a "non-starter." Sometimes it appears that prior to the post they were just lurking the BB, trying to learn GTD from here, which I imagine would be piecemeal and difficult.

Shtriemel, it sounds as if you are pretty clear about your feelings about GTD and it's usefulness, or lack thereof, for you, though I do not claim that I correctly understand your specific objections/dissappointment with it. And that is fine, I don't have to understand. But I do find myself wondering what it is you hope to get out of participating in the BB? It sounds as if your decision has been made. Is there are particular discussion thread about GTD that might be useful for you, but that hasn't already been started?