London Times - Is self-help a scam?

[mackenzie]

Interesting stuff

Hi everyone, this is my first post here, although I have been reading for a while.

As a survivor of the mental health system, I have to say that the various methodologies of psychology have a close resemblance to religion. Each school of thought has it's own dogma's and tennets. There are those who lean heavily on psychopharmia, those who loathe even the vaguest suggestion of drugs. The various therapists snap and snarl at each other over the efficacy of their own chosen path.

As the mother of 2 psychology students (1 graduate, one still studying), I am also aware of the research into the results of each type of therapy. CBT is recognised as the best choice for depression and some eating disorders. No, shtriemel, I am not going to quote sources right now, but I can, if you insist, it's just not on my NA list right now! lol

Anyway, back to GTD, it does have a lot of CBT resonance, and that is a good thing for those of us stressed out by our jobs and trying to find life/work balance. We need to recognise our behaviours and learn how to adapt them.

Yes, there is an argument for changing your lifestyle, but it isn't always possible. In an ideal world we could all go off and do a job we loved which would fit in with our families and leave us time to explore ourselves and our hobbies. The world we find ourselves in, however, is far from ideal. We have to work to earn enough to pay the bills and, hopefully, have some left over for the little things that make life bearable (like food and clothes!). To do that, we have to take what we are given.

Yes, some of us have enough that we could step back and relax a bit, but most of us need our jobs in order to survive. We therfore look for ways to cope, ways to gain control of the work which threatens our family/relaxation. Before GTD I was working through every lunch hour, coming home late every night, and spent most evenings wound up and stressing about all the things I hadn't done. With GTD I have regained some control. I now at least know everything I need to do, and the things I want to do, and that gives me some peace of mind. DA's words about psychic RAM and open loops resonated with me. He was describing exactly what was happening to me, the constant reminders popping into my head of phone calls I hadn't made at 2am, or of letters I hadn't written while on the train.

The visits to this forum are for hints and tips, ways to keep my lists in better order, ways to trust my system more (I'm still in the first implementation phase).

Yes, it is sad that we have to do this. It would be so much better if we could just be who we are and do what we wanted to do, but, alas, we live in a material world, and we have to work in order to live. To me, David Allen has given me a way to live as well as work, which I had lost for a while there.

I also disagree strongly with the idea that he has no poetry. He is constantly emphasising the need to free your mind to allow creativity, stressing the need to acknowledge your dreams. As I see it, the whole point of GTD is to give you back the control and the confidence to read or write poetry again.

 

[ActionGirl]

Is that you or is that not you, and other's like you, discussing GTD like it's some esoteric form of Kaballah? Sounds like it to me.

Again, I think you are making sweeping generalizations based on very limited evidence. That was me. I, however, would not assume that others here are "just like me" on the basis of their participation in discussions of so limited a topic as GTD. If you want to see REAL hair-splitting in action, you should visit my favorite message board about a certain sport.

ActionGirl,
Is responding to my posts a N/A? Because it would seem to me that it's a huge waste of time to do so. Shouldn't you be busy implementing your N/A? And isn't that the problem with the system i.e. WE'RE HUMAN. And GTD tries to sell you a system that's better suited for the working ant. That's all I'm saying. And clearly, by responding to my posts, you're proving my point. Again, I beg you, please get back to your N/A. David would be proud.

Again, you are making very broad assumptions about me based on very little evidence. I spent most of yesterday and last night on the internet, partly because I could, having only recently gotten an internet connection at home, but mostly because I was following reports online of obscure competitions taking place in various places. [The internet age is a beautiful thing when you can get almost real-time eyewitness accounts of events not covered by the sports media, and from people who often know all those arcane rules much better than the paid reporters. ]

Actually, I probably don't disagree with you to the extent that you assume. I myself put GTD into the category "helpful for dealing efficiently with mundane issues," i.e., a life hack. In all seriousness, it has changed my life in small but significant ways. I used to have paper everywhere, and though I could usually find things that were important, it was a source of stress. DA's tips on filing convinced me to buy a gargantuan filing cabinet and to use it intelligently. I threw out a ton of crap, and what I kept, I can actually find quickly and easily. My surroundings no longer look like a landfill. Granted that may seem pretty trivial, but I'm very happy about it. No way will I go back to my previous habits. If you got past the mountain of paper that used to cover every horizontal surface of my office in my last job, you would have found that I was a philosophy professor, not the white collar "ant" you assume.

 

[shtriemel]

As the mother of 2 psychology students (1 graduate, one still studying), I am also aware of the research into the results of each type of therapy. CBT is recognised as the best choice for depression and some eating disorders.

I'm confused. You need GTD because you're life was unmanageable, stressed and had too much to do. But you had the time to research, and attend, the different schools of therapies and make a sound decision on which one is best for depression. Wow. Wow.

I have no doubt that most folks on this BB are fans of CBT and/or other brief, quick fix solutions for thier hectic, stressed lives. We're living in sick times people. Or as Dr. Elio Frattaroli states: "When you have a sick culture, you produce sick symptoms".

Anyway, back to GTD, it does have a lot of CBT resonance, and that is a good thing for those of us stressed out by our jobs and trying to find life/work balance. We need to recognise our behaviours and learn how to adapt them.

Oy vey, such a rationalization. And it tearing families and communities apart. A very good friend of mine about to lose his marriage. Both he and his wife work crazy hours, BUT own two beautiful cars and a lovely home. They justify their choices due to their love for their daughter. They claim all of their friends are suffering through similar predicaments. And as their marriage is being flushed down the toilet, and as they blame each other for their woes, they both have no interest in changing their lifestyle. And they also take sollace in similar circumstances in all of their friends homes. Nice. And yes, they also try to implement various systems a la GTD to deal with their choices.

Yes, there is an argument for changing your lifestyle,

You make it sound like it's a choice, it's not. My clients were stressed beyond thier means, but they couldn't understand how their choices were contributing to so much of their unhappiness and anxiety. True we're predispostioned to biology...sociology, but I'd bet most folks on this BB aren't worried about how to put food on the table (wanna take a bet?). They're worried about how they're going to pay for the house, SUV's, vacation, 6 large screen TV's, etc., etc. Again, wanna bet?

Yes, it is sad that we have to do this.

We agree.

I see it, the whole point of GTD is to give you back the control and the confidence to read or write poetry again.

Really? As I see it, it's to help you be a better drone.

 

[shtriemel]

Again, I think you are making sweeping generalizations based on very limited evidence. That was me. I, however, would not assume that others here are "just like me"

ActionGirl,
You don't need a research degree to figure out:

a) that time-management systems, in general, come in fads, provide us with a few kernels of truth, and appeal to two types of folk: 1) Time-management nerds who are pretty good at this stuff and are constantly tweaking the system 2) Hopeless procastinators that are always looking for a way to beat their nature (and with each new book, tape, hypnosis...they cling to the illusion that this time it'll be better)

b) that many, if not most, of the posts on this BB are folks trying to understand what David is talking about visavis implementation.

c) that people on this site who cry out to the heavens: "Thank God for GTD"...a to-do list on steroids IMHO, will be back, on amazon, buying another book by another guru, promissing that you can have it all, only if you purhcase my book, tape, outlook-add in and wallet with note-taker (you gotta give allen credit, he knows how to make money off of suffering). Not unlike a therapist, huh?

 

[shtriemel]

Shtriemel, it sounds as if you are pretty clear about your feelings about GTD and it's usefulness, or lack thereof, for you...but I do find myself wondering what it is you hope to get out of participating in the BB?

Call it cognitive dissonance...perhaps I feel like a sucker, or that I ignored that inner voice that said: "Stay with your system that works for you". But I'm human, and I read so many good reviews about GTD on Amazon that I spend a few months working it. And he throws in some Asian metaphors and I thought: "Ah, a spiritual component a la Covey...I like this". And then I read the BB's, and realized, that so many people here sound like my clients. And the whole thing made me a little sad and angry. So I'm putting my stick in the hornets nest to see what happens. If I wanted to discuss the benefits of psychodynamic therapy, importance of lifestyle changes, etc. in an incestuous enviornment, I'd do so on a board for therapists and/or spiritual types. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

And since I've just moved, and have no responsibilities besides setting up my place, I've got some time...or I believe the phrase is "a mind like water".

 

[shtriemel]

A recent post:
http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3871
How timely.

 

[mackenzie]

I'll take that bet

shtriemel, I am a single mother who has raised 3 children mostly alone. When I wasn't alone, I had an abusive husband. It took all of my courage to get out the door and get a job when he left, but it was the only way to keep the roof over my head.

I work to keep that roof there and to put food on the table. I have no car at all, let alone an SUV, a basic TV (not even widescreen), just the one, I haven't had a vacation in over 15 years, unless you count the odd daytrip, and my house is rented.

If you care to read the paragraph you quoted, I said that my daughters were studying psychology. I help them with their studies, it's part of my life/work balance. It is their study and their research I am quoting, and yes, if you insist I can give you the sources, though it might take a day or two for them to check back on them and for me to then get back to you.

Maybe GTD is just the latest "fad", but it is not GTD which is tearing families and communities apart. It is the society we live in, the materialistic, capitalist mindset which insists that we are what we own and that wealth is the only status worth having. David Allen did not bring that about, and GTD is just a way of coping within that society in a way that can possibly save your family or community.

Have you actually read the book? David Allen is constantly emphasising the need to look at your commitments in ALL areas of your life.

 

[shtriemel]

Have you actually read the book? David Allen is constantly emphasising the need to look at your commitments in ALL areas of your life.

I've read and tried implementing the book. When I came to this site for guidance, it seemed there was a plethora of other folks like myself who didn't understand what David was talking about. So much for "a mind like water" shlock. Worse was the posts where people were discussing where to put "brush my teeth" and if it was a project or not.

Mackenzie...you may say who you say you are (this is the interent after all)...and if GTD helped, congrats. But if you think you're going to sell me the line that GTD is system for the people, ya know, good wholesome stuff, I say you're wrong. It's a system that has responded to a sickness, not as a cure, but a maintenance package. And this IS my opinion after having read/implemented parts of GTD and listened (though I had to stop half way though) to Ready for Anything. Again, I'm human. And I'm sharing my experiences with this BB because I belive there are others who feel the same way. And since I work with suffering/pain for a living, I thought I'd have a different perspective than other worker ants who'd cheer on the system.

 

[ActionGirl]

I've read and tried implementing the book. When I came to this site for guidance, it seemed there was a plethora of other folks like myself who didn't understand what David was talking about. So much for "a mind like water" shlock. Worse was the posts where people were discussing where to put "brush my teeth" and if it was a project or not.

Maybe you should give David Allen's coaching services a try. Or at least base your critique on his own writings rather than on what people who happen to post here may say. After all, I doubt you would recommend that anyone go to a message board for guidance about therapy, or that you would accept as valid criticism of psychotherapy that was based on what non-therapists said on a message board!

 

[shtriemel]

Maybe you should give David Allen's coaching services a try. Or at least base your critique on his own writings rather than on what people who happen to post here may say. After all, I doubt you would recommend that anyone go to a message board for guidance about therapy, or that you would accept as valid criticism of psychotherapy that was based on what non-therapists said on a message board!

ActionGirl...I stated, appx. 3-4 times already, that I READ and tried IMPLEMENTING GTD as a supplement to B. Sher's work in Wishcraft. My opinions and feelings about GTD were nourished during this experience.

 

[Day Owl]

Having followed this thread through several lengthening readings since its inception, I am impressed by the amount of squabbling and sniping and personal attacks and just plain meannness expressed by most of the contributors.

Just about every other thread on this board is characterized by helpfulness and good will. If people have different opinions on the other threads, they are likely to express them with civility. What is it about this particular thread that has aroused such defensiveness, hostility, and combativeness?

I hope newcomers to this board will not judge it by this thread alone.

 

[TesTeq]

Long and winding road.

I've read and tried implementing the book. When I came to this site for guidance, it seemed there was a plethora of other folks like myself who didn't understand what David was talking about. So much for "a mind like water" shlock. Worse was the posts where people were discussing where to put "brush my teeth" and if it was a project or not.

shtriemel,
It seems that there is a long and winding road before you - until your mind will be like water. You came here to fight but unfortunately you haven't met anybody who wants to fight. Everybody wants to help you but apparently you do not want to accept any help.
If you do not like GTD why you are wasting your precious time here. Give David's books to charity and forget about it.
Live your life in your own way.

 

[shtriemel]

shtriemel,
It seems that there is a long and winding road before you - until your mind will be like water. You came here to fight but unfortunately you haven't met anybody who wants to fight. Everybody wants to help you but apparently you do not want to accept any help.
If you do not like GTD why you are wasting your precious time here. Give David's books to charity and forget about it.
Live your life in your own way.

Actually there are a few who fought, but that's another story.

This thread became a runaway train, that I'll give ya. But once it did, I took the opportunity to point out (which I could never do with my clients) the what/whys around much of our suffering. And I believe GTD maintains, not heals, this scenario. On that note, I wish you luck in turning your minds into water and figuring out if your N/A should be to respond to this email or flush your toilet.

 

[Suziloo]

Should we all be spending hours & $$$ at the therapist

I fit into the procrastination category that was mentioned. GTD has helped w/ that. Should I instead have found a psycho therapist to help me?

 

[TesTeq]

Mind like water.

On that note, I wish you luck in turning your minds into water and figuring out if your N/A should be to respond to this email or flush your toilet.

Great! That's exactly the answer I was expecting from you. Thanks.
But to make my post a little educational I would like to quote David's description of the "mind like water" state:

Imagine throwing a pebble into a still pond. How does the water respond? The answer is, totally appropriately to the force and mass of the input; then it returns to calm. It doesn't overreact or underreact.

 

[alsa]

This is an unusual thread here and an unusual poster. One could assume that we are a bunch of zombies (or drones) and this new poster is our Savior who intentionally or unintentionally is set to lead us out of this cult.

I think someone has had too much psychology/psychiatry. Even my own mother told me that some learned people can become, well, you know. Just look at some colleges like Berkeley (but I am not going to descend into politics here -- of all places)

Anyway. This has been a fun conversation (in which I, admittedly, did not participate), but I think that to take GTD TOO seriously is uncalled-for. What's to be serious about is recognizing patterns that lead us all to question our efficiency in anything.

Color me a drone

 

[Gator Ash]

Hello everyone! I've only posted a couple of times before but I thought I'd chime in on this topic. I suffered from 6 1/2 years worth of depression and tried most of the basic self-help material out there to include NLP, Neuro-Semantics, self-hypnosis, Tony Robbins, etc. which all failed. I even saw counselors and psychologists at school as well as received informal counseling from friends who were in the counseling field. I even turned to religion. After all that, I did manage to find something that worked for me. This is no hyperbole, but I managed to cure this depression in about 10 minutes (a statement I would stand behind in any venue). I did this on March 8th of this year and I've not had to do any follow up work at all. I've had a bad day here and there since then, but I figure that's what happens to normal people, LOL! The difference is that unlike the "artificial" feelings that you get from self-help stuff, I simply don't feel extremely sad and hopeless all the time. Life isn't a bowl of cherries for me just yet but it sure isn't a bowl of crap either!

 

[TesTeq]

Self acceptance and "rules of life" acceptance are the keys.

After all that, I did manage to find something that worked for me. This is no hyperbole, but I managed to cure this depression in about 10 minutes (a statement I would stand behind in any venue). I did this on March 8th of this year and I've not had to do any follow up work at all. I've had a bad day here and there since then, but I figure that's what happens to normal people, LOL! The difference is that unlike the "artificial" feelings that you get from self-help stuff, I simply don't feel extremely sad and hopeless all the time. Life isn't a bowl of cherries for me just yet but it sure isn't a bowl of crap either!

Congratulations!

Many people have this moment of enlightenment sooner or later. But unfortunately some people are not able to find this simple truth. In my opinion the main problem is to find the answer for the following question:

Who is this person that is looking at me from the mirror?

And if you can find the satisfactory answer you are ready to make friends with him.

Self acceptance and "rules of life" acceptance are the keys.

 

[ceehjay]

Cure?

. . . I did manage to find something that worked for me. This is no hyperbole, but I managed to cure this depression in about 10 minutes (a statement I would stand behind in any venue). I did this on March 8th of this year and I've not had to do any follow up work at all.

What was the cure, the "something that worked for me?"

Carolyn

 

[Gator Ash]

What was the cure, the "something that worked for me?"

Carolyn

Thanks for the question Carolyn, that might have been some useful info to add, LOL! What worked for me, was a technique called the 3D Mind Model which is based on the 3D Brain Model by Dr. Ken Giuffre, author of "The Care and Feeding of Your Brain". The 3D Brain Model claims that most personal problems are the result of chemical imbalance in the brain. The 3D Mind Model is a very quick way to restore that balance. So it has a very different focus than most self-help where the focus is to replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts through affirmations, visualizations, willpower etc.