NLP
- Thread starter Busydave
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I am one of the officers of the National Guild of Hypnotists. If you would like details, check out my web site.
Neurolinguistic Programming, or NLP for short, is a system of change strategies developed by studying the work of several prominent therapists, including hypnotist Milton Erickson, MD.
I find it to be an artificial system of rules and formula, but there is no question that it is effective when used by a practitioner who does it well.
As with any self-help or personal change system, the results last if one is serious and motivated. No system of change can cause change in a person who isn't motivated.
So, yes it works. Yes, it can help you. No, it can't make everything easy but it can make everything easier than it would otherwise be.
Glad to help,
Scot Giles
Neurolinguistic Programming, or NLP for short, is a system of change strategies developed by studying the work of several prominent therapists, including hypnotist Milton Erickson, MD.
I find it to be an artificial system of rules and formula, but there is no question that it is effective when used by a practitioner who does it well.
As with any self-help or personal change system, the results last if one is serious and motivated. No system of change can cause change in a person who isn't motivated.
So, yes it works. Yes, it can help you. No, it can't make everything easy but it can make everything easier than it would otherwise be.
Glad to help,
Scot Giles
A
Anonymous
Guest
What does anyone think of NLP?
One way of thinking about NLP is to consider it to be "thinking about thinking"
Another way is to consider it as a field of interest that enables a practitioner to model and replicate excellence. (In the case of people this means their beliefs and behaviours that produce outstanding results.)
NLP Is based upon an insatiable curiosity about how things work. It's less concerned with why things work - just how. One simple example of this is the famous NLP spelling strategy where it has been found that the best 'spellers' use a combination of visualisation and gut feeling to spell. Poor spellers tend to spell fernetickly!
Is it a highly refined form of visualisation?
No
Does it work?
Yes
Is it self-hypnosis?
No
Does it wear off?
No - but you can brush it off!
NLP would help you improve the quality of your questions based - upon excellent questioning! You are asking closed questions, an NLP practitioner might use open questions, unless they had a specific outcome in mind which required a yes / no answer. For example you might have asked:
What experiences of using NLP do you have?
How have you used NLP to improve visualisation?
How has NLP worked for you?
How can NLP be used for self-hypnosis?
etc ...
These would give you a higher quality answer.
The GTD flowchart would be, IMHO, what NLPers call a Strategy.
Much has been said on these boards about the essence of GTD being the attitude changes (black belt mindset), combined with the strategy (flowchard and then the use of a technology (Binder, Palm)
In this respect GTD could be an NLP model for excellent productivity.
I recommend a couple of books that are good introductions to NLP:
Frogs into Princes: A transcript of the original NLP seminar by Bandler and Grinder
Personal Power: Anthony Robbins book which is NLP applied to the modelling of success
BUT, you need to experience NLP to really 'get' it.
One way of thinking about NLP is to consider it to be "thinking about thinking"
Another way is to consider it as a field of interest that enables a practitioner to model and replicate excellence. (In the case of people this means their beliefs and behaviours that produce outstanding results.)
NLP Is based upon an insatiable curiosity about how things work. It's less concerned with why things work - just how. One simple example of this is the famous NLP spelling strategy where it has been found that the best 'spellers' use a combination of visualisation and gut feeling to spell. Poor spellers tend to spell fernetickly!
Is it a highly refined form of visualisation?
No
Does it work?
Yes
Is it self-hypnosis?
No
Does it wear off?
No - but you can brush it off!
NLP would help you improve the quality of your questions based - upon excellent questioning! You are asking closed questions, an NLP practitioner might use open questions, unless they had a specific outcome in mind which required a yes / no answer. For example you might have asked:
What experiences of using NLP do you have?
How have you used NLP to improve visualisation?
How has NLP worked for you?
How can NLP be used for self-hypnosis?
etc ...
These would give you a higher quality answer.
The GTD flowchart would be, IMHO, what NLPers call a Strategy.
Much has been said on these boards about the essence of GTD being the attitude changes (black belt mindset), combined with the strategy (flowchard and then the use of a technology (Binder, Palm)
In this respect GTD could be an NLP model for excellent productivity.
I recommend a couple of books that are good introductions to NLP:
Frogs into Princes: A transcript of the original NLP seminar by Bandler and Grinder
Personal Power: Anthony Robbins book which is NLP applied to the modelling of success
BUT, you need to experience NLP to really 'get' it.
C
CosmoGTD
Guest
NLP has some good tools, that can be found in any introductory book about NLP out there.
But NLP is also WAY oversold, by lots of people out to make a fast buck. That is, they make HUGE CLAIMS about its "benefits", without any scientific, objective evidence at all.
NLP is a form of Cogintive Restructuring, its nothing mystical, except for the parts when they exaggerate and lie to sell more books, tapes, courses, seminars, and coaching.
Buyer beware. There's sharks in them waters.
http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html
Here's a little "insider" NLP info.
http://www.tonyrobbins.com/community/showthread.php?amp;threadid=10688&highlight=*NLP+banana
But NLP is also WAY oversold, by lots of people out to make a fast buck. That is, they make HUGE CLAIMS about its "benefits", without any scientific, objective evidence at all.
NLP is a form of Cogintive Restructuring, its nothing mystical, except for the parts when they exaggerate and lie to sell more books, tapes, courses, seminars, and coaching.
Buyer beware. There's sharks in them waters.
http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html
Here's a little "insider" NLP info.
http://www.tonyrobbins.com/community/showthread.php?amp;threadid=10688&highlight=*NLP+banana
A
Anonymous
Guest
Don't knock it 'til you try it
I don't believe that it's TRUE NLP that is way oversold. Although I do agree that the 'common concept' of NLP is oversold. Take a look at people like Richard Bandler, Judith DeLozier, Robert Dilts or Sid Jacobson for true NLP. They have evidence of facilitating people to get unbeliveable results.
Also, to really get a handle on NLP do a search on NLP presuppositions and you'll see the belief system these people operate from - that is the real key.
I agree also that, unfortunately, like any great tool NLP can be used by masters and by amatures - with the kind of predictable results you'd expect. And, I'm not surprised that NLP gets a bad rap from people who recommend reading about it in a book!! You don't learn to ride a bike by reading a book!
Why is it we humans look for quick fix solutions and 'catch all' prescriptions when the world doesn't work that way. The TRUE NLP system has been diluted, packaged and 'sold' by some people who:
1. Understand it, say they train others in it but in fact offer quick fix
2. Are clueless, read a book and train others in what they read
3. Are like the people I named above - masters in a particular field
You know how a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy is not as good as the original .... NLP is like that!
Do you begin to see my point ...
NLP is MORE than cognative it involves phsiology to - you must also engage in a specific physiological state. That is one of the BIG mistakes people make - they are surprised when they don't get new results when they just do the same old things in the same old way.
Scientific evidence - phew! Well there is no scientific evidence for God, so does that mean that faith and belief don't work? Seriously, most 'scientific' psycological studies are done on very poorly indeed. I say this because I have seen some of the evidence of so called evidence.
I just want to do what works and gets results. GTD is an example of a wholistic structure that works in certain contexts. When applied in certain contexts it works outstandingly. In other contexts there may be a different system that is more appropriete.
How would the comment that GTD is over-hyped be taken on these boards? But to my knowledge it has no real scientific evidence. It is a philosopy, strategy and structure designed by David. Now the great thing about GTD is that it works brilliently in spite of this limitation!!!!
Are you getting the point ....
Instead of knocking the people involved, I look at the results they have achieved and model those bits you want to emulate. I'd also suggest that in order to truely comment on a subject like this you need to have experienced it rather than pontificate.
It reminds me of an old lady I know who complains about people speaking on mobile phones while they drive - says its dangerous. Interestingly she has never driven a car or used a mobile phone.
Now, I happen to agree with her. But I think my comment holds slighly more weight having driven for over 20 years and used a mobile phone for about 12.
Did you get the point ....
I don't believe that it's TRUE NLP that is way oversold. Although I do agree that the 'common concept' of NLP is oversold. Take a look at people like Richard Bandler, Judith DeLozier, Robert Dilts or Sid Jacobson for true NLP. They have evidence of facilitating people to get unbeliveable results.
Also, to really get a handle on NLP do a search on NLP presuppositions and you'll see the belief system these people operate from - that is the real key.
I agree also that, unfortunately, like any great tool NLP can be used by masters and by amatures - with the kind of predictable results you'd expect. And, I'm not surprised that NLP gets a bad rap from people who recommend reading about it in a book!! You don't learn to ride a bike by reading a book!
Why is it we humans look for quick fix solutions and 'catch all' prescriptions when the world doesn't work that way. The TRUE NLP system has been diluted, packaged and 'sold' by some people who:
1. Understand it, say they train others in it but in fact offer quick fix
2. Are clueless, read a book and train others in what they read
3. Are like the people I named above - masters in a particular field
You know how a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy is not as good as the original .... NLP is like that!
Do you begin to see my point ...
NLP is MORE than cognative it involves phsiology to - you must also engage in a specific physiological state. That is one of the BIG mistakes people make - they are surprised when they don't get new results when they just do the same old things in the same old way.
Scientific evidence - phew! Well there is no scientific evidence for God, so does that mean that faith and belief don't work? Seriously, most 'scientific' psycological studies are done on very poorly indeed. I say this because I have seen some of the evidence of so called evidence.
I just want to do what works and gets results. GTD is an example of a wholistic structure that works in certain contexts. When applied in certain contexts it works outstandingly. In other contexts there may be a different system that is more appropriete.
How would the comment that GTD is over-hyped be taken on these boards? But to my knowledge it has no real scientific evidence. It is a philosopy, strategy and structure designed by David. Now the great thing about GTD is that it works brilliently in spite of this limitation!!!!
Are you getting the point ....
Instead of knocking the people involved, I look at the results they have achieved and model those bits you want to emulate. I'd also suggest that in order to truely comment on a subject like this you need to have experienced it rather than pontificate.
It reminds me of an old lady I know who complains about people speaking on mobile phones while they drive - says its dangerous. Interestingly she has never driven a car or used a mobile phone.
Now, I happen to agree with her. But I think my comment holds slighly more weight having driven for over 20 years and used a mobile phone for about 12.
Did you get the point ....
C
CosmoGTD
Guest
Re: Don't knock it 'til you try it
I've trained with Bandler personally , so i know of what i speak. Beware.
A person can get the basic tech of NLP from a book. That's all they need, in my opinion. They don't need to spend thousands on some bogus "trainer".
NLP has not been tested properly. Its a real hodgepodge of stuff, with all sorts of Grandiouse claims made, with Anecdotal Testimony as "evidence".
In my view, NLP is bad therapy.
There were some good ideas years ago, but it has been taken over by uber-huckster NLP supersalesmen out to get rich making BIG claims.
There are better ways to effect personal change, in my view.
Stick to a registered psychologist, and those with proper training, credentials and ethical standard.
I am telling you flat out, BEWARE of the well dressed, smooth talking, rapport building, NLP salesman who is telling you he has the Tech to change your life in an instant, for a mere few grand.
I have seen these guys do terrible things to people, in the name of making money, and without any Ethical restrictions on the Unconscious Persuasion techniques they use on people.
Misused, the stuff can really hurt people.
NLP is a total free-for-all.
I hath seen thus, and much worse, with mine own eyes.
I've trained with Bandler personally , so i know of what i speak. Beware.
A person can get the basic tech of NLP from a book. That's all they need, in my opinion. They don't need to spend thousands on some bogus "trainer".
NLP has not been tested properly. Its a real hodgepodge of stuff, with all sorts of Grandiouse claims made, with Anecdotal Testimony as "evidence".
In my view, NLP is bad therapy.
There were some good ideas years ago, but it has been taken over by uber-huckster NLP supersalesmen out to get rich making BIG claims.
There are better ways to effect personal change, in my view.
Stick to a registered psychologist, and those with proper training, credentials and ethical standard.
I am telling you flat out, BEWARE of the well dressed, smooth talking, rapport building, NLP salesman who is telling you he has the Tech to change your life in an instant, for a mere few grand.
I have seen these guys do terrible things to people, in the name of making money, and without any Ethical restrictions on the Unconscious Persuasion techniques they use on people.
Misused, the stuff can really hurt people.
NLP is a total free-for-all.
I hath seen thus, and much worse, with mine own eyes.
Anonymous said:
Coz wrote:
Coz,
I am selectively quoting you to point something out.
You have told readers of this board to beware the extraordinary power of NLP put to evil ends. I know, from my contextual knowledge of you through your other postings, that you sincerely wish to warn others away from NLP. But I fear that this will have an unintended consequence.
A reader might think, "If this stuff is so evil that it enables the practitioner to manipulate people almost without limit, then I want to learn it."
Once, when I went to send a letter to DA, I noticed that I forgot to put moises in the return address. So I gave some money to a kid on bike and told him to get me a pen nowwwww.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Coz,
I am selectively quoting you to point something out.
You have told readers of this board to beware the extraordinary power of NLP put to evil ends. I know, from my contextual knowledge of you through your other postings, that you sincerely wish to warn others away from NLP. But I fear that this will have an unintended consequence.
A reader might think, "If this stuff is so evil that it enables the practitioner to manipulate people almost without limit, then I want to learn it."
Once, when I went to send a letter to DA, I noticed that I forgot to put moises in the return address. So I gave some money to a kid on bike and told him to get me a pen nowwwww.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
C
CosmoGTD
Guest
I am just giving my opinion, based on my life experiences.
I am not steering people away from NLP.
Just giving a reality check to all the hype.
Don't believe the hype.
Watch out for the sophisticated covert unconscious manipulation techniques used to close the sale. (ie; YOU).
Or, go knock yourself out.
I am not steering people away from NLP.
Just giving a reality check to all the hype.
Don't believe the hype.
Watch out for the sophisticated covert unconscious manipulation techniques used to close the sale. (ie; YOU).
Or, go knock yourself out.
Scott_L_Lewis
Registered
moises said:
Sorry, didn't work. Try italics next time.
Scott_L_Lewis
Registered
Harm From NLP
Coz,
How have you seen people harmed by NLP? Has it been inept practice, unethical practice, or both?
Most people who are skeptical about it assert that it just doesn't work at all. You seem to be indicating that at least some of it does work, and is being misused.
I would assume that the better ways to effect personal change are REBT and CBT. Are there others?
CosmoGTD said:
Coz,
How have you seen people harmed by NLP? Has it been inept practice, unethical practice, or both?
Most people who are skeptical about it assert that it just doesn't work at all. You seem to be indicating that at least some of it does work, and is being misused.
I would assume that the better ways to effect personal change are REBT and CBT. Are there others?
C
CosmoGTD
Guest
Re: Harm From NLP
Harmed financially, buy charging them a fortune to deal with psychological/personal/professional problems. They use Super-Advanced Sales techniques on regular people, who might have some serious psychological problems. Could you imagine if your Therapist was constantly trying to manipulate you COVERTLY to take more Advanced Courses with him for 2->5->10->50+ grand?
People can be harmed psychologically as well.
For example: if they mess with your Submodalities, and create new beliefs that are ABSURD and UNREALISTIC, and do things like "create a compulsion", these can create lots of psychological stress in people. Misused, it can be very harmful.
Also, as i stated, the field has attracted a bunch of Tony Robbins Wannabes, who want to Get Rich Fast, by "helping" people. Some of these people have the Ethics of a very bad used car dealer, or worse, and have ZERO ZERO ZERO psychological training. I have also seen some who were expert liars, as in, lying about the results they had achieved with people, in a TOTALLY CONGRUENT way...voice tone, physiology, language patterns, etc.
There are some CBT psychologists who have integrated SOME NLP tech into CBT. [see, "The NEW Handbook of Cognitive Therapy Techniques by McMullin].
As far as personal change, there are many ways. I personally prefer CBT-REBT, and similar techniques, but there are many many methods and theories out there. There are some good core ideas in NLP, but a ton of Junk, in my view.
Each person needs to find what works for them. But its a real jungle out there.
I would suggest sticking with actual psychologists, etc. But that is not always the case. Just watch it, when dealing with the SuperNLPers.
This is a great FREE book, with an ocean of good info.
http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp
Harmed financially, buy charging them a fortune to deal with psychological/personal/professional problems. They use Super-Advanced Sales techniques on regular people, who might have some serious psychological problems. Could you imagine if your Therapist was constantly trying to manipulate you COVERTLY to take more Advanced Courses with him for 2->5->10->50+ grand?
People can be harmed psychologically as well.
For example: if they mess with your Submodalities, and create new beliefs that are ABSURD and UNREALISTIC, and do things like "create a compulsion", these can create lots of psychological stress in people. Misused, it can be very harmful.
Also, as i stated, the field has attracted a bunch of Tony Robbins Wannabes, who want to Get Rich Fast, by "helping" people. Some of these people have the Ethics of a very bad used car dealer, or worse, and have ZERO ZERO ZERO psychological training. I have also seen some who were expert liars, as in, lying about the results they had achieved with people, in a TOTALLY CONGRUENT way...voice tone, physiology, language patterns, etc.
There are some CBT psychologists who have integrated SOME NLP tech into CBT. [see, "The NEW Handbook of Cognitive Therapy Techniques by McMullin].
As far as personal change, there are many ways. I personally prefer CBT-REBT, and similar techniques, but there are many many methods and theories out there. There are some good core ideas in NLP, but a ton of Junk, in my view.
Each person needs to find what works for them. But its a real jungle out there.
I would suggest sticking with actual psychologists, etc. But that is not always the case. Just watch it, when dealing with the SuperNLPers.
This is a great FREE book, with an ocean of good info.
http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp
Scott_L_Lewis said:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Anyone out there ever experience NLP? What was it like? Can you share the circumstances?
Note: I'm not an expert in NLP by any means. This only comes from my experience.
I have Unlimited Power from TR and have used it (and its NLP) to help my motivation. It caused me to think about my actions and how I was basically telling myself to do things that would not lead me to success. By adapting NLP principles to my own life, I caused myself to have mannerisms that led me to more success.
It sounds simple...and in a way it is. It's not hypnosis. I didn't believe I would make $1,000,000 in a year. (TR never claimed that either)
From what I experienced, it's a combination of examining what you want from your life and adapting behaviors that will get you there. You still have to want it, deep down. It's not a magic formula. But by using behaviors and thinking, you'll adapt yourself to what you desire. There's a known relationship between emotions, thinking, and physical behavior. As a teacher, we see this all the time. NLP, in my experience, is only using that connection to affect the thinking and emotions by adjusting the physical.
Did NLP solve all my problems? Heck, no! *I* solved my problems. Sure, I had help. A bit of NLP, a good organizer, some good time management techniques. But I had to do it. These were all just tools to help me get to where I want to be.
I have Unlimited Power from TR and have used it (and its NLP) to help my motivation. It caused me to think about my actions and how I was basically telling myself to do things that would not lead me to success. By adapting NLP principles to my own life, I caused myself to have mannerisms that led me to more success.
It sounds simple...and in a way it is. It's not hypnosis. I didn't believe I would make $1,000,000 in a year. (TR never claimed that either)
From what I experienced, it's a combination of examining what you want from your life and adapting behaviors that will get you there. You still have to want it, deep down. It's not a magic formula. But by using behaviors and thinking, you'll adapt yourself to what you desire. There's a known relationship between emotions, thinking, and physical behavior. As a teacher, we see this all the time. NLP, in my experience, is only using that connection to affect the thinking and emotions by adjusting the physical.
Did NLP solve all my problems? Heck, no!
*I* solved my problems. Sure, I had help. A bit of NLP, a good organizer, some good time management techniques. But I had to do it. These were all just tools to help me get to where I want to be.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Any other good books as well as Unlimited Power?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I read Unlimited Power and found it very intriguing on NLP – I felt I could almost see what it was about. Then I read another book which made NLP seem a lot more trance-like than Robbins did. Now I’m not sure if I will know whether I “get” NLP or not … I might be doing it right and not know!
T
Tomas D.
Guest
First, what is NLP. It is just a bunch of various techniques. It is called NLP because if something doesn't have a name, you can't sell it. IMHO NLP is not a field nor a science.
The problems that CosmoGTD speaks here about, I see these are mostly with the people, not with NLP.
The introductory tools.
And not in any book really, there are many bad NLP books out there.
That's like with anything else. That's not problem with NLP, but with people.
As far as the evidence goes, you said you have seen a numerous examples of NLP in action, though I guess this was all on the "dark side", ie. NLP misused. Anyway, it proves how powerful NLP techniques are, don't you think? And if they can be used for bad things, they can be used for the good ones, too. Just depends in which hands.
Sorry but this "know it all" guy has absolutely no clue about NLP. He only shows total misunderstanding, and picks-up few claims out of context and makes an easy argument with those.
With insider, you mean the same Michael Hall, who on his training with Bandler, instead of training to really gain his NLP certification, was just writing notes as mad, and in the time that other people were doing the exercises where you get the skill, he was going around reading their notes. Later he made a book from his notes and from notes of the other people, never giving them any credit, but claiming that some top NLP experts participated on that book, showing their names, where it was not true - they had no clue.
I will not participate further in this thread, there have been already many flames about NLP as it is, not willing to start more, moreover I am not even going to defend NLP here, just put another perspective on it.
The problems that CosmoGTD speaks here about, I see these are mostly with the people, not with NLP.
CosmoGTD said:
The introductory tools.
And not in any book really, there are many bad NLP books out there.
That's like with anything else. That's not problem with NLP, but with people.
As far as the evidence goes, you said you have seen a numerous examples of NLP in action, though I guess this was all on the "dark side", ie. NLP misused. Anyway, it proves how powerful NLP techniques are, don't you think? And if they can be used for bad things, they can be used for the good ones, too. Just depends in which hands.
Sorry but this "know it all" guy has absolutely no clue about NLP. He only shows total misunderstanding, and picks-up few claims out of context and makes an easy argument with those.
With insider, you mean the same Michael Hall, who on his training with Bandler, instead of training to really gain his NLP certification, was just writing notes as mad, and in the time that other people were doing the exercises where you get the skill, he was going around reading their notes. Later he made a book from his notes and from notes of the other people, never giving them any credit, but claiming that some top NLP experts participated on that book, showing their names, where it was not true - they had no clue.
I will not participate further in this thread, there have been already many flames about NLP as it is, not willing to start more, moreover I am not even going to defend NLP here, just put another perspective on it.
C
CosmoGTD
Guest
I agree that most of the problems with NLP were due to the lack of ethics/skill of the practioners. Part of the reason for this is that the practioners aren't operating out of any kind of legal/ethical framework, like registered psychologists, etc. Even a guy like Robbins brags that he went out and practiced NLP on people BEFORE he even finished the initial training!
And yes, NLP, like any other psychological technique that messes around with your beliefs, perceptions, submodalities, and uses "hypnosis" and "embedded commands", can be abused. In my view, the reason NLP is worse, is that it attracted people without proper psychological training, who want to wanted to get rich quick doing it.
I would guess there are some ethical and skilled NLPers out there, but i haven't seen them. Perhaps Dilts is ok, although i haven't met him.
As far as good books, some of Bandlers early books are pretty good, and a book called "NLP: The New Technology For Achievement" is pretty good too to start with.
NLP is like any other psychological technique, BUT, in its early days it had the misfortune to attract a bunch of hucksters, who used it on people like Supersalesmen, and hurt a lot of people.
Any psychological technique can be harmful when used indiscriminately on people for profit.
And yes, NLP, like any other psychological technique that messes around with your beliefs, perceptions, submodalities, and uses "hypnosis" and "embedded commands", can be abused. In my view, the reason NLP is worse, is that it attracted people without proper psychological training, who want to wanted to get rich quick doing it.
I would guess there are some ethical and skilled NLPers out there, but i haven't seen them. Perhaps Dilts is ok, although i haven't met him.
As far as good books, some of Bandlers early books are pretty good, and a book called "NLP: The New Technology For Achievement" is pretty good too to start with.
NLP is like any other psychological technique, BUT, in its early days it had the misfortune to attract a bunch of hucksters, who used it on people like Supersalesmen, and hurt a lot of people.
Any psychological technique can be harmful when used indiscriminately on people for profit.