The GTD perspective on Saying Yes to Mess?

tominperu

Registered
Have just finished listening to a BBC World Service programme on the "anti anti mess" movement and the idea that accepting mess and disorder can enhance our creativity and by extension our productivity.

Here's an article from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/g...24357200&en=ce87bee90be66dff&ei=5088&partner=...

I'm not sure about this and suspect its just an excuse for procastrination.

I know the often repeated mantra that one of the ways GTD can benefit creativity is by giving you time to focus on creative processes and clearing your mind of other things.

However, I do get frustrated that the GTD processes don't sometimes help me get to the crux of things sooner. I think it might be something to do with facing the emotional element of work. Sometimes certain amount of stress and frustration can sometimes lead to breakthough, while GTD can lead to a rather mechanical process.

I also know some very creative and productive people (productive in a creative and innovative way) that would never get involved in anything like GTD. My mother is an example.

I am anti-mess/clutter by innate personality reasons and not because of GTD. Which leads me to wonder - are there any GTDers out there who tolerate a certain amount of creative mess and clutter and if so how do you reconcile this with GTD which is a ordered system with everything "having a place and everything in its place"?

And what do you think of this "anti anti mess" reaction/movement?
 

kewms

Registered
I think it's a false dichotomy, manufactured because the author had a deadline and needed to write something. Maybe if her office were neater, she'd be able to find her idea notebook...

I think you have to differentiate between the kind of clutter that indicates things are happening, and the kind that makes it impossible to get anything done. It's true that when I'm in the middle of cooking a big meal, my kitchen is a mess. But it's also true that it's dangerous to leave sharp knives lying around, and that an unwashed cutting board is a food poisoning disaster waiting to happen. Similarly, my notes for a big project can be a gloriously messy riot of colors, doodles, different sizes and shapes of paper, and so forth. But all of that creative thinking is wasted if I can't find it when I need it.

As in many things, the balance lies somewhere in the middle.

Katherine
 

tominperu

Registered
kewms;45530 said:
I think it's a false dichotomy, manufactured because the author had a deadline and needed to write something. Maybe if her office were neater, she'd be able to find her idea notebook...

I think you have to differentiate between the kind of clutter that indicates things are happening, and the kind that makes it impossible to get anything done. It's true that when I'm in the middle of cooking a big meal, my kitchen is a mess. But it's also true that it's dangerous to leave sharp knives lying around, and that an unwashed cutting board is a food poisoning disaster waiting to happen. Similarly, my notes for a big project can be a gloriously messy riot of colors, doodles, different sizes and shapes of paper, and so forth. But all of that creative thinking is wasted if I can't find it when I need it.

As in many things, the balance lies somewhere in the middle.

Katherine

I agree. A balance is required.

I think I am sometimes too focussed on order to the point where it is a way of procastrinating. DA gave a very good example of how procastrination can work in one of his recent podcasts. He jokingly said if his house looks absolutely fantastic then its a sure sign that something really important is not getting done. One could probably say that about my very ordered house and office.

Perhaps a better questions would be: How do people manage to differentiate between tidying and ordering that needs to be done and tidying and ordering that's just procastination?
 
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verevi

Guest
Awesome post, tominperu. I recently read that article as well.

I've realized that sometimes I feel less able to be productive because I feel like EVERYTHING has to be in perfect order before I DO stuff... this often leads me to DOing very little. Obviously being able to accept "mess" to a certain degree would help me, I suppose.

Keep the thoughts on this coming, I look forward to everyone's insight.
 

Brent

Registered
It is wonderful to forgive oneself for having a mess. This is similar to the first step in addiction recovery: recognizing the addiction and forgiving oneself for getting addicted.

But there's a big difference between forgiving oneself for having an addiction, and allowing that addiction to continue in one's life.

I completely agree with Katherine's post.
 
C

Constant

Guest
Very interesting topic. The Times article refers to the recent book "A Fine Mess" by authors Abrahamson and Freedman. Although it argues for "messiness", to be fair ,the book does differentiate garden variety messiness from pathalogical messiness (an illness that would potentially need a recovery program). And that may talk to the paradox often mentioned that you need structure to be creative. That's where GTD should come in. Also, in David's case, in GTD fast tapes he talks about the need to use mind mapping (a structure) or some form like that to facilitate creative brainstorming sessions as very few people other than Indian mystics can manage that type of mental focus for any usefull length of time.

But David says don't narrow your reticular activating filters (translate-keep an open mind) or you won't see the blue in the room here.

One of the "Fine Mess" book's core ideas is the concept of "stochastic resonance" or the fact that "random noise" in a signal many times can have a positive impact on that signal in quality and information content. Ex,: Fleming's messy (noise) desk yields high quality information (penicillin) to oversimplify that one.

And to paraphrase the authors - If a messy desk is a sign of a messy mind then what can we say about an empty desk? Can this all be the evil twin of mind like water?

There's even more about all this in another book called "Noise" by Bart Kosko who also wrote "Fuzzy Thinking"
From that book: Noise is good........-"Much as random raindrops can help calm a rough sea" (another analogy on stochastic resonance).

Bottom line for me is that I need the structure of GTD to keep my messiness on this side of chaos so I'm taking the middle of the road. But the info is very interesting.
 
C

Constant

Guest
Very interesting topic. The Times article refers to the recent book "A Fine Mess" by authors Abrahamson and Freedman. Although it argues for "messiness", to be fair ,the book does differentiate garden variety messiness from pathalogical messiness (an illness that would potentially need a recovery program). And that may talk to the paradox often mentioned that you need structure to be creative. That's where GTD should come in. Also, in David's case, in GTD fast tapes he talks about the need to use mind mapping (a structure) or some form like that to facilitate creative brainstorming sessions as very few people other than Indian mystics can manage that type of mental focus for any usefull length of time.

But David says don't narrow your reticular activating filters (translate-keep an open mind) or you won't see the blue in the room here.

One of the "Fine Mess" book's core ideas is the concept of "stochastic resonance" or the fact that "random noise" in a signal many times can have a positive impact on that signal in quality and information content. Ex,: Fleming's messy (noise) desk yields high quality information (penicillin) to oversimplify that one.

And to paraphrase the authors - If a messy desk is a sign of a messy mind then what can we say about an empty desk? Can this all be the evil twin of mind like water?

There's even more about all this in another book called "Noise" by Bart Kosko who also wrote "Fuzzy Thinking"
From that book: Noise is good........-"Much as random raindrops can help calm a rough sea" (another analogy on stochastic resonance).

Bottom line for me is that I need the structure of GTD to keep my messiness on this side of chaos so I'm taking the middle of the road. But the info is very interesting.
 
C

Constant

Guest
appologies for the double posting to all - I'm a total luddite.
 

unstuffed

Registered
Great thread

Great thread, tominperu. I'd not read that article, and I think I'll pass it on to my colleagues here, because everyone will have an opinion on it (disclosure: I'm a professional organiser).

The 'procrastination' tidying you refer to is displacement activity, and it's exceedingly common. Look at just about any university student around exam time. It's just an outward expression of an inward anxiety: we feel our world is slipping out of control, and it's emotionally uncomfortable for us to tackle what's making us anxious, so we try to assert control in some other area.

As for working out which is necessary order and which is procrastination, I think we determine that from how we feel. If we feel that we're on top of all our projects, and we do something non-crucial that's been niggling for a while, that's normal. If we suddenly get an overwhelming urge to tidy and catalogue the saucepan cupboard, or flee from the office and spend 6 hours digging stones out of the gaps in the paving, that's probably procrastination.

I think the authors who wrote that book are making several logical errors. First, they're using one example and claiming that that proves the rule, as when they used Fleming to suggest that mess is more creative. I think, if they did even a cursory survey of biological and chemical researchers, the ones with mouldy petri dishes on their desks and no cataloguing would not necessarily be the most productive.

Second, they're claiming that order == constraint == crippling. Yes, order imposes a constraint. But in most cases, most of the time, it's a constraint we need. We're not constraining our creativity, which is what they claim. That's an old canard.

And from personal observation, I disagree with their postulate in general. Most of my clients are people who have become overwhelmed by parts of their work or personal life, and have withdrawn their tentacles, in a sense, so they no longer control the mess. Once we start to sort through it, and begin to get them organised, aware of all their committments and in control of their lives, they feel much better. The mess is simply blocking them from making any progress whatever.

I'd say that there are people who use systems that appear unorganised, to us. These are the ones who function well but look messy. There are others who do well enough, but could do much better with a good system. And there are those who are really struggling, but still want to feel superior to someone, so they denigrate 'organised people' as those who have each cornflake individually labelled and won't have a conversation without a signed waiver in triplicate.

Yes, putting GTD in place, getting organised, clearing physical and mental clutter, are all challenging. They can be unpleasant. But the end result, a workable, dead simple, stress-relieving, system, is well worth it. I can't say I'm there yet, but at least I've had some of that glorious feeling of freedom and creativity that comes from being totally on top of everything.
 

Max

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Constant;45540 said:
And to paraphrase the authors - If a messy desk is a sign of a messy mind then what can we say about an empty desk? Can this all be the evil twin of mind like water?

But an organized person does not work at a total empty desk. They work on a clear desk with just one project laid out on it. Therefore, they do not have an empty mind but a very focused mind.
 

gtderik

Registered
For me...

Personally, I have had to loosen my grip on trying to maintain complete neat-ness while being productive. I have learned that when I allow a little messiness that the need for perfection releases me emotionally to hunker down and GTD.
 
C

Constant

Guest
Max;45550 said:
But an organized person does not work at a total empty desk. They work on a clear desk with just one project laid out on it. Therefore, they do not have an empty mind but a very focused mind.

No argument there Max. But maybe in this case the book's authors are just trying to stimulate us into seeing their ideas on the hidden benefits in disorder, and the empty desk-empty mind (originally Einstein's I believe) quote serves as a vehicle to do that. This won't impact my enthusiasm for structure like GTD. Without it I wouldn't have the time to read books on Messes.
Having said that, a lot of the ideas they're presenting seem to have validity in biology and physics where in many cases noise(= disorder or mess) acutually improves the quality of information/signals (even in our brain processes for ex.), so I found the book very interesting food for thought.

Excuse me while I toss some files around.
 

tominperu

Registered
Really interesting!

Fantastically interesting and insightful responses.

I look forward to reading the article again at the weekend when I have more time, and thinking of something intelligent to add to rival the responses so far, though that might be difficult...

Noone can say GTDers have closed minds!
 

RuthMcT

Registered
If someone has a messy office and knows where everything is, and can work with it, that's fine by me. But when I have a messy office (and believe me I can do mess), I can't find anything. As a result I spent tens of minutes or even hours wasting time trying to find important documents. The authors of that article can't tell me that is an efficient use of my time.

It has just taken me 3 weeks to find one particular chart I needed for a lecture today. It's out of print and can't be found on the web. Unfortunately the cupboard I found it in is number 3 on the list of remaining cupboards to purge and organise, and it was in a folder I haven't used for about 5 years!

On the other hand, since starting GTD I can see the top of my desk and am orgnised enough to turn up at meetings with the correct set of minutes. Tidyness rules! and thank you David Allen and GTD for brining some sanity into my life

Ruth
 

unstuffed

Registered
Mess can be order...

RuthMcT;45583 said:
If someone has a messy office and knows where everything is, and can work with it, that's fine by me. But when I have a messy office (and believe me I can do mess), I can't find anything. As a result I spent tens of minutes or even hours wasting time trying to find important documents. The authors of that article can't tell me that is an efficient use of my time.

I'm the same. I get very tetchy when the mess mounts up, because I can't find things. It happens when I let my system slide, so I try not to do that. Can't say I'm perfect, or even close, but at least I've come a long way from where I started.

I read a great book that's related to this idea recently. It's called "Conquering Chronic Disorganization", and it's written by Judith Kolberg (I think). She's a professional organiser in the southern states somewhere (Georgia?), and she talks about some of the work she's done with people who just can't get organised.

The problem is that some people think differently: they process information in a different way, and their memory/mental storage is keyed in a different way. Most of us are primarily visual, but some are not.

So, for instance, people who are spatial thinkers will look for something where they remembered it, not by the memory of seeing it, but the memory of where it was placed in relation to themselves. People who are primarily auditory will remember conversations, meetings, and tones of voice, but not reading minutes.

I'm describing this extraordinarily badly, but it was quite a mini-revelation for me. It was also the source of several good alternatives for bits of my system, and the book which convinced me that we don't have to be too serious about our filing categories (amongst other things).

One great example was a guy who'd had a head injury and lost his ability to visually categorise (this gets into Oliver Sachs territory). His garage was a total mess, because he had to spread everything out on the floor to allow him to find things by touch. Her answer, which was great, was to put it all on a small-weave fishing net and suspend it from the roof, so it could be lowered when he needed to find stuff. Two painted shadow boards took care of the hand tools.
 
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pageta

Guest
You have to define mess. Do I have papers on my desk that aren't perfectly stacked? Yes. Thus they might look like "mess" to someone passing by. Are they something I'm using for an active project? Yes. Thus they are not "mess" to me but part of what I am currently doing.

I think a person's level of mess needs to correspond with their level of effectiveness. There are certain things I leave out, because having them out will bug me and remind me that they need to be done. If I put them away to be done later, they will stay around longer, even if they are on my NA lists. If I have too many things out, I have too many things to do and I need to get a grip. If I have nothing on my desk, that too is painful because I essentially have nothing to do.

So to me, GTD isn't anti-mess - it simply helps you manage the mess more effectively by how you approach it.
 

mephisto

Registered
I'm pretty orderly but that orderliness tends to go up and down a little. When there's a little more mess I usually get an energy boost from cleaning up. That's probably the only think I like about it.
 

Cpu_Modern

Registered
I know GTDers who do everything with index cards, stickies, posters and other on-the-wall hanging stuff, because they don't see a list of things written on a sheet of paper as something orderly.
 
C

Constant

Guest
But isn't GTD a method of harnassing hidden order of messiness?

You could argue that, according to "The Perfect Mess" book, if there are benefits to some disorder (not the out of control type), the GTD system is harnassing it. In this way........

David Allen talks about the Natural Planning model and gives some real world examples in GTDfast

Meaning...... (again these are David's ideas to give proper credit)...........
When we don't want to forget something thats of mission critical importance to take with us in the morning we put it at our exit door knowing that whatever morning drowsy state of consciousness we're in we'll likely stumble on it and be reminded to take it with us. Organization and stumbly messiness working together for a better outcome

Then David argues that the whole GTD system is kind of putting our organization items in front of the door--in the following way........Ex.-Our action items....

The @ Phone "Door"
Without the need for highly organised thought we check the phone calls to make and "stumble" upon all the calls on our list we had put at this "door" of the phone– (oh yeah, call so and so, and so and so and….)

The @ Computer "Door"
Again checking the list we had "propped up" against this "door", we're reminded of what there is to do no matter where our thinking was at the moment

And so on for any other @lists (doors) we have
So in a way we're constantly stumbling on our "Penicillin discovery" all day with the way our organization system is set up with some disorder (our minds are free of constant reminding since we've organized our re-minders as constant discoveries or re-discoveries in a way)
 

tominperu

Registered
Constant;45625 said:
Then David argues that the whole GTD system is kind of putting our organization items in front of the door--in the following way........Ex.-Our action items....

It's an interesting idea but surely this is stretching the definition of "messyness" a bit far.

I appreciate that you can think of messyness as having things in unexpected or uncommon places but there is usually the idea of randomness and disorder.

Surely it's the randomness and disorder that these guys are saying we should harness because it's there we can see unexpected connections and ideas "out of the box".
 
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