Any Christians who've read GTD?

Mark Jantzen

Registered
Why not read the book and find out?

cdevidal said:
Because I am getting mixed answers, I would encourage you to make it a research project on your TODO list ...

Because I am getting mixed answers, I probably will avoid reading it ...
I'm struggling with the objection to reading the book and discover for yourself. You obviously have a strong faith and I would not expect it to waiver even in the presence of writings you don't agree with.

I personally don't see religion in the book but could see it as a tool to help practice one's faith - e.g. organize study, reading, etc. in context with other day-to-day things like paying bills, etc.

My humble two cents,
Mark
 

BigStory

Registered
One practical example...

David's blog is now closed, but I can tell you that the staff who work for DesiringGOD.org (John Piper) attended David's seminar in Minnesota last year, based a blog entry he made. See: www.desiringgod.org

This is a solid, extremely thoughtful, evangelical Christian organization, very familiar with the differences between Christianity and other faiths, and very clear about their own beliefs. Perhaps you could contact them about their own experience.

FWIW,
Gordon
 

GTDWorks

Registered
I didn't take the time to read all the postings but what I read was interesting.

I am an "evangelical" pastor who has found great help in David's methodologies. My ministry is far stronger and more effecrtive because of the application of the principles and practices delineated in GTD, Ready for Anything, and the many articles, videos, and poscasts I've enjoyed here.

I read alot. Some things I read I agree with and other things I read I say, "Well, that's not for me" or "That doesn't fit into my worldview, but I can learn something from it." I engage my brain regularly so that I can get the most out of my studies as possible

I am a discerning reader and student. I don't avoid reading something because it doesn't line up exactly with my opinion. I believe all truth is God's truth and that I have much to learn from everyone I encounter. I feel enriched by the experiences I've had with people of other faiths and opinions. I give them respect and I expect them to offer the same to be. I'm rarely disappointed.

My interactions with the staff at DavidCo (and with David himself) has been 100% positive and always educational. We have never discussed our religious beliefs with one another. I don't force my meaningful beliefs on them nor do they try to convert me to theirs (I don't even know what they believe!).

I simply enjoy the results of GTD and the way it helps me be a better manager of the responsibilities I have in my busy world.

We've got a great group of GTDers here and I always enjoy learning from you all. Thanks, everyone!
 

darlakbrown

Registered
Thanks GTDWorks!

What a wonderful post. Well said and what a wonderful philosophy about respecting other's beliefs (as well as privacy). I appreciate your openness to learning and respecting other's views.

Darla

GTDWorks said:
I didn't take the time to read all the postings but what I read was interesting.

I am an "evangelical" pastor who has found great help in David's methodologies. My ministry is far stronger and more effecrtive because of the application of the principles and practices delineated in GTD, Ready for Anything, and the many articles, videos, and poscasts I've enjoyed here.

I read alot. Some things I read I agree with and other things I read I say, "Well, that's not for me" or "That doesn't fit into my worldview, but I can learn something from it." I engage my brain regularly so that I can get the most out of my studies as possible

I am a discerning reader and student. I don't avoid reading something because it doesn't line up exactly with my opinion. I believe all truth is God's truth and that I have much to learn from everyone I encounter. I feel enriched by the experiences I've had with people of other faiths and opinions. I give them respect and I expect them to offer the same to be. I'm rarely disappointed.

My interactions with the staff at DavidCo (and with David himself) has been 100% positive and always educational. We have never discussed our religious beliefs with one another. I don't force my meaningful beliefs on them nor do they try to convert me to theirs (I don't even know what they believe!).

I simply enjoy the results of GTD and the way it helps me be a better manager of the responsibilities I have in my busy world.

We've got a great group of GTDers here and I always enjoy learning from you all. Thanks, everyone!
 

gretajean

Registered
I can't imagine teaching a course on a subject that one has not studied or read, no matter what it is. If it bothers you that much, have someone else teach the class.
 

Timbo22

Registered
Pastor of a large Church

This is my first post to a forum, but felt like I should respond. I am the Executive Pastor of a very large Chrisitan Church in California. After reading GTD and becoming familiar with the process, we have encouraged our entire staff, about 85 folks to read the book. We have even agreed to purchase the book for them if they will comit to working the process. Having said that I do not see any confict between the book and my faith. If anything it has give me more time and focus on other itmes to allow me to spend more time with God, and the practices and disciplines of my faith.
 

madalu

Registered
Mark Jantzen said:
I'm struggling with the objection to reading the book and discover for yourself. You obviously have a strong faith and I would not expect it to waiver even in the presence of writings you don't agree with.
I'm not sure that calling mysticism "demonic" is a sign of a strong faith. Nor is the rude attempt to exclude other voices from the conversation. Nor is the original post's almost pathological preoccupation with pollution by "other" faiths and experiences. Nor is the need to believe that one is absolutely correct and all others are absolutely wrong.

A strong faith rests firm in what it believes and thus is able to engage charitably and humbly with other beliefs, views, and perspectives. It does not need to insist anxiously that other beliefs are absolutely wrong, demonic, or perverse. A strong faith is willing to be corrected. It even recognizes that it may be quite wrong about God and the nature of reality--since it cares above all for God and reality, not itself or its own correctness.

A weak faith is willing to sacrifice even God for the sake of its own correctness. It puts itself in the place of God.
 
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pjstadig

Guest
Analysis from Reformed POV

I'm not sure if anyone will end up reading this, or if it'll get lost down at the end of a long thread, but here's my perspective.

I too was initially wary when I saw references to Zen and "mind like water", however I do not have the same (please don't take offense to this) superstitious perspective. I think you are seeing meat sacrificed to idols and deciding to throw it out. I, on the other hand, see it as edible meat. If you dismiss GTD because of a few references to Zen, then you are missing out. Having read the whole thing I found that most of the book (nearly 90%) is purely and simply practical tips...best practices. Even the "mind like water" references in the book I think are good practical advise. I may not agree with a mystical presupposition to such statements, but I can agree that the principles in having a "mind like water" are not inherently unbiblical.

My main caution with the book is not to look at it as a magical talisment that can make me productive and happy (I think someone coming from a non-Christian perspective would say the same thing), but instead to see it as practical advice that can be useful when used appropriately. Being a Reformed Christian I believe in in-born and total (in extent) depravity, and that the root of my procrastination is sin. I do not believe that any system or process can fix that. However, again, I think there is acknowledgement from non-Christians as well that GTD does not fix procrastination, and anyone would be simple minded to think so.

A good reference that deals with procrastination from a Christian perspective is Procrastination: First Steps to Change by Walter Henegar from Grace Books International (http://www.gbibooks.com/final.asp?id=42960).

If you can see GTD through the lens of biblical understanding, then it is definitely worth the read.

Paul
 
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Jeff Kelley

Guest
The saddest thing about CD's views is that he closes himself off to so much good information because there MAY be a couple of stray statements that MAY be linked to something that MAY not coincide with his born-again Christian beliefs. Thankfully there are more Christians that have open minds like GTDWorks than "Christians" like CD.

-Jeff
 
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LJM

Guest
The idea of choosing not to read something because it might say something you disagree with is, frankly, antitical to everythihg I beleive in and feel to be important. It's just incomprehensible to me.

But I would like to understand the thought process more, even though I disagree with it. Can anyone point me to an explaination of how someone can claim to beleive something very strongly, and yet be scared that one stray contrary opinion might shatter that faith and should thus be avoided at all costs? Or am I misunderstanding the inclination entirely?
 

kewms

Registered
As I understand it, there are two reasons to avoid "proscribed" reading materials.

The first is that humans are weak, and the Devil is always looking for ways to nudge humans away from the path of righteousness. The more "nudges" you allow into your life, the more likely you are to fall. Avoid temptation, and you don't have to resist it.

The second is that buying books with evil ideas supports the disseminators of those ideas, and therefore funds efforts to nudge one's fellow humans (who are, because they are human, weak) off the path.

There's also a third, less noble reason: if a religious leader limits his followers' exposure to other ideas, he limits the potential challenges to his own authority. This third reason is why the first translators of the Bible into languages other than Latin were excommunicated, and part of why the Protestant Reformation happened. The heirs of the Reformation somehow fail to see the irony in their actions...

Personally, I like Galileo's view, "I do not feel compelled to believe that the same God who has endowed us with reason and intellect expects us to forgo their use."

Katherine
 
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Jeff Kelley

Guest
LJM;45186 said:
The idea of choosing not to read something because it might say something you disagree with is, frankly, antitical to everythihg I beleive in and feel to be important. It's just incomprehensible to me.

But I would like to understand the thought process more, even though I disagree with it. Can anyone point me to an explaination of how someone can claim to beleive something very strongly, and yet be scared that one stray contrary opinion might shatter that faith and should thus be avoided at all costs? Or am I misunderstanding the inclination entirely?
I find it stange as well. CD sounds like a fervent believer but this attitude gives the impression that his faith is hanging on by a thread.
 
Jeff Kelley;45188 said:
I find it strange as well. CD sounds like a fervent believer but this attitude gives the impression that his faith is hanging on by a thread.
File it under "Compulsive search for the end of the tunnel instead of shining your own light".

Rainer
 

darlakbrown

Registered
How about this theory:

Ignorance is bliss.

If a person doesn't open themselves to new knowledge or other view points, they remain blissfully ignorant. This is fine and is, of course, any person's privilege and right. This is only their right as long as they don't hurt others due to their ignorance and/or arrogance.

That's my 2cents.
 
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LJM

Guest
kewms;45187 said:
Personally, I like Galileo's view, "I do not feel compelled to believe that the same God who has endowed us with reason and intellect expects us to forgo their use."
(Or in my Grandmother's words: "God gave you brains; why don't you use them?!" :D )

Katherine, you're "reason three" was obvious to me, but I doubted that would be the stated reson for the prohibition. Thank you for reasons one and two. :)

It still doesn't make sense to me when I try to follow the train of logic. But this comes from a major difference of opinion in where reason and logic should come into helping determine one's world view. I believe reason to be a fundamental (though not exclusive) aspect of how one relates to reality and determines what is true. That makes it very hard for me, and others who see reason to be crucial, to relate to or comprehend people and people who have rejected reason as a reliable tool for assessing reality-- and I'm sure we're equally incomprehensible to them.
 

kewms

Registered
LJM;45206 said:
I believe reason to be a fundamental (though not exclusive) aspect of how one relates to reality and determines what is true. That makes it very hard for me, and others who see reason to be crucial, to relate to or comprehend people and people who have rejected reason as a reliable tool for assessing reality-- and I'm sure we're equally incomprehensible to them.
But they'll pray for us anyway...

The problem is that reason explains how, but not why. In particular, knowing the mechanistic reasons behind things like war, disease, and plain old bad luck isn't all that comforting to those suffering from their effects (or to those who are relieved to have avoided their effects). Humans want to believe that they matter, and religion is one of the tools they use to support that belief.

Katherine
 
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bookimdano

Guest
Since religion is such a touchy subject, I would suggest withholding comments until CD gives us specific quotes from the book that he or she objects to.
 

cpfuller

Registered
Read the book

I have been a Christian for over 30 years. Read the book and trust the Holy Spirit to guide you. I found nothing in the book to be of a religious nature. It has in fact helped me to find more time for Bible Study.

Charles
 
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cdevidal

Guest
bookimdano;45230 said:
Since religion is such a touchy subject, I would suggest withholding comments until CD gives us specific quotes from the book that he or she objects to.
In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up. Still haven't read the book, for that very reason. Cannot recommend it to anyone, for the same reason.

In that first post I also specifically requested that only born-again Christians reply. Sadly, my wishes were not respected.

If you want to debate religion, let's talk! Please either email me (Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv) or join me in a public debate on another message board such as OpenAirOutreach.Proboards52.com.

I'd be more than happy, exuberantly happy, abundantly happy to talk to anyone and everyone! But somewhere else, not on this message board.

Thanks for your understanding.
 

mcogilvie

Registered
Fortunately for everyone, cd is a polite person. However, discussion with him is likely to prove frustrating. If you visit his web site

cdevidal;45243 said:
You're a good person? Yeah, right!
Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com
you find a supposed offer of $10,000 if you pass a test. After 10 "right" answers, you get the response:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

I think this speaks for itself, and I suggest we return this thread to its dormant status asap.
 
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