Any Christians who've read GTD?

C

cdevidal

Guest
mcogilvie;45244 said:
Fortunately for everyone, cd is a polite person. However, discussion with him is likely to prove frustrating. If you visit his web site

Not my web site, and it is a legitimate offer. If you can prove you have kept the Ten Commandments, you get $10,000. He's asked his lawyers to validate it, and it's a binding contract.

Fortunately for Ray, no one has. His money is as safe as if it were in Fort Knox.

You attacked my signature (and indirectly, my personal character) without rationally discussing the issue at hand. Minus five points :-D

Seriously, if you're not a born-again Christian, please excuse yourself. Thanks for understanding.

If however you would like to discuss the website I put into my signature, please email me: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.
 

unstuffed

Registered
Can everyone play this game?

A rather fascinating and offbeat thread. Rather than repeat what many people have already said (and far better than I could), I'll add a couple of other thoughts.

Katherine said:
There's also a third, less noble reason: if a religious leader limits his followers' exposure to other ideas, he limits the potential challenges to his own authority.

I believe that's also the reason for the Council of Nicaea in 322, when Church leaders decided which books would go into the official bible, and which would be excluded. From this administrative decision comes the New Testament we know today.

cdevidal;45245 said:
If you can prove you have kept the Ten Commandments, you get $10,000. He's asked his lawyers to validate it, and it's a binding contract.

It may be a binding contract, but it's a foolish one, because there is no way to prove such a negative. Think about it: how would someone go about proving that they've never lied, for example? It's not possible. No-one is under the sort of surveillance necessary to prove such a thing to a legal standard.

So discount that claim: it's a game only.

In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up.

I'd describe Zen as philosophy, not religion. And as someone else pointed out, 'mind like water' is a metaphor, and David says so clearly in the book. Nothing about spirituality, unless you consider that calming yourself, in order to focus your energies on what you are doing, is spiritual.

In that first post I also specifically requested that only born-again Christians reply.

Well, as the Rolling Stones told us, you can't always get what you want. But if you try some time, you just might find, that you get what you need.

My opinion on your question is this: there's nothing in GTD that could upset any true Christian. It's grounded very strongly in the practical, and illustrated by means of quotes from a variety of sources. Here's two I found (on page 72), by the simple expedient of opening the book at random:

Nothing is more dangerous than an idea when it is the only one you have. - Emile Chartier
and
Only he who handles his ideas lightly is master of his ideas, and only he who is master of his ideas is not enslaved by them. - Lin Yutang

If your faith is troubled by those, or quotes like those, then best you don't read the book. But then, if you don't read the book, it's best you don't use the system or attempt to teach it.

Sadly, my wishes were not respected.

Well, it is a free forum. FYI, you'd probably consider me a godless heathen, and therefore disregard all I've said. I, OTOH, consider myself a thoughtful and tolerant person, and feel that the validity of my opinions and/or my reasoning are not dependent on whether or not I subscribe to any particular belief system.

Finally, I'd say that if your faith is threatened by mere exposure to other ideas, then it's a very shaky faith indeed. Most of the people I know are able to read something, think about it, then accept or reject it: they don't deny themselves the possibility of learning. And we learn from everything we encounter, the good and the bad, so if you're limiting your encounters, you're learning less.
 

packmatthews

Registered
Very Entertaining

Okay, I bit the bait and now this thread is part of my "stuff". So since this is proof of how wiley Satan is at luring me off my game, I've pulled out my GTD bible and found that my personal relationship with David Allen has shown me the way. He whispered in my ear the following questions:
"What is it?"
Well David, It's a thread on a GTD site that's wandered down a quite fascinating rabbit hole and allowed me to avoid looking at my Next Actions or get to the weekly review I've been avoiding.
Then David smote my mote-filled eyes with the next question just as I was stooping to pick up a stone,
"Is it actionable?"
And low, I was convicted as I wrestled with the spirit of GTD beside the water cooler amongst my fellow lost souls. As I looked deep into my heart I could not tell a lie, (oops, wrong myth) and did doth answer him saying . . . Noooooooooooo!!!!!
And as the evil angel of procrastination tried once again to launch it's talons in my sexually suggestive breast I was saved yet again by that beam of salvation as I heard my savior ask,
"Then how do you plan to organize it, Trash, Reference, or Someday/Maybe?"
And I chose Trash,
no Someday Maybe,
no Trash,
No S/M. Hey, that abbreviation, "S/M" looks a little too much like S & M, maybe I should avoid that category altogether.
 

Max

Registered
Revalation

packmatthews;45355 said:
Hey, that abbreviation, "S/M" looks a little too much like S & M, maybe I should avoid that category altogether.

That explains a lot. I showed my wife the number of projects I had including 69 in the S/M category. She gave me a disgusting look and will no longer sleep in the same room as me.
;) ;)
 

Dave John

Registered
"You're a good person? Yeah, right!
Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com "

??????

Christianity reduced to a $10,000 bet?

Thanks all the same, but if that’s “born again” I’ll take the old kind any day.

Dave
 

Gameboy70

Registered
Just for fun, and because I could use the money, I decided to take up the $10K Offer, answering all 10 questions about my fidelity to the Commandments in the affirmative. Rubbing my hands together with dreams of avarice before clicking on the final Submit button, I suddenly toggled over to the Palm Desktop to add "Hire accountant" to my project list. Returning to TenThousandDollarOffer.com, I submitted my final answer and got this:
Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift.
Looks like the Ninth Commandment is one of Ray's open loops.
 

kewms

Registered
Gameboy70;45368 said:
Looks like the Ninth Commandment is one of Ray's open loops.

Actually, I think Ray needs to go back and read the rest of Romans 3. I'm no theologian, but, in context, I don't think Romans 3:11 (which actually quotes Psalms) says what he claims it says. Rather, I think it warns against exactly the sort of legalistic hairsplitting in which he's indulging.

But I'm not a theologian and this isn't a theological forum, so I'll stop now.

Katherine
 

ext555

Registered
I would agree with Katherine , and I am an ordained minister.
That is not what that verse means at all, and the fact that someone "supposedly " is wiling to pay money for keeping the 10 commandments and then twists scripture to avoid doing so , makes me ill ..

I seek after God daily , and I'm a member of this forum .
I see no issue with Christians practicing GTD , it's a very big part of our church staff management , and the main reason we no longer have 3 hr mtgs to discuss one issue anymore ..

Sure David mentions eastern religious terms etc.. that doesn't mean I have to practice his beliefs [whatever they may be] anymore than he has to practice mine .
 

rachel134

Registered
Fascinating thread

"I want to host a GTD workshop at work and teach everyone about it "

As a teacher, I am appalled that anyone would teach something without having read the source material. I hope that, in the interest of honesty, and the spirit of the 9th commandment, CD will announce at the beginning of the workshop that s/he has not read Getting Things Done and is basing the class on what other people have written about it.

Rachel
 

GTDWorks

Registered
I was serving in a judicatory role on Saturday morning helping an independent church determine whether or not they wanted to partner with our denomination.

I used the Natural Planning Model and found it so cool to get to the end of the meeting and hear myself ask, in fine GTD fashion, "Okay, folks,what's the Next Action?" :D
 
B

bookimdano

Guest
"In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up. Still haven't read the book, for that very reason."

I would say that if the phrase "mind like water" causes you to stumble then follow your conscience and don't read the book. Otherwise you would be sinning. That is the principle behind Romans 14:23

Mature Christians on the other hand can read GTD and benefit greatly from it. They have the discernment to retain beneficial concepts and disregard those that may not be biblical (although I am not aware of any unbiblical concepts in the book).

I would suggest that everybody following this thread read all of Romans 14. Here are a few select verses:

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" - Romans 14:1-4
 

MiataPops

Registered
GTD helped me to focus on the higher levels of life

bookimdano;45389 said:
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" - Romans 14:1-4

Thank you, bookimdano. I read all of these posts and debated whether to post or not. Your post convinced me to do so.

I am almost 59 years old. The first time I went to church, I was 6 days old. My father was a (to give it a label) fundamentalist minister, and I've had a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ since I was a youth by confessing my sins with my mouth, believing in the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus by his death and resurrection, and living under the grace that Christ bought with his blood. But, the cares of life often caused me, like Peter, to look at the raging sea instead of Jesus who was walking on the water.

cdevidal, GTD has not only helped me with the Runway, 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 feet levels, which, to me, are "temporial" in nature because they are related to "things" - trying to make a living and raise a family; but, GTD helped me to realize the 40,000 and 50,000 feet levels were being sacrificed in my life. GTD helped me to focus on the higher levels of my life. I now read my Bible everyday, I pray for others everyday, I memorized the names books of the Bible, I attend church more faithfully, I tithe on the gross amount of my salary, I am more conscience of the need to display a "Christ-like" spirit in my attitude and dealings with others, I memorize scripture, and I am bolder in my witness of Christ in my life. Having a "mind like water" enables me to focus on lasting things, not just those things I can do in 2 minutes or less.

As to the Ten Commandments bet, I thought Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law when he gave His life on the Cross for the sins of mankind because no man could keep the Law. That was the whole point. But, praise God, I now can say:

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I quoted a lot of scriptures cdevidal, but, since this post is for "Christians only", I'm sure you won't mind.
 
Thanks for your interesting post, MiataPops.

As for me I would never trust a religious system in which the deity (god) at first does the mistake of postulating a law that cannot be fulfilled or obeyed , and then has to sacrifice his own child in order to balance this failure.

Bad cosmic management, indeed.

Rainer
 

MiataPops

Registered
I don't understand, Rainer

I don't know the answer to your question, I don't think anyone does. But, the only decision I have to make is the choice to believe or not. That's the decision everyone faces.

I admit there is alot I don't understand about "religion". This morning, I read it in Exodus about Moses and his burning bush experience where G_d asked him to go to Eqypt and lead his children out of bondage. So, Moses put his wife and son on a donkey and headed for Eqypt. The very next verse describes that Moses was lodging in an inn and G_d became angry and wanted to kill him! WHAT'S UP WID DAT!? I don't understand.

What I do understand is that I have peace. What I do understand is that prayers are answered. What I do understand is that my family is protected. What I do understand is all of my physical needs are meet according to His riches in glory. What I do understand is that I have a blessed hope of His soon coming and eternal life in splendor.

But, there is still much that I don't understand. For that, I have faith.

May you have a wonderful day today, Rainer. Go in peace.

Pops
 
C

cdevidal

Guest
All done :)

In an age of supposed "religious tolerance" I find it ironic that I have been consistently persecuted and critisized for simply stating my beliefs. "Religious tolerance." Indeed. For everyone but Christians, I guess.

I can think of nothing I have to apologize for. I said that I would not have said if Jesus were standing right next to me, so I have nothing to apologize for. If memory serves correctly I didn't attack any one of you. I simply stated my beliefs and was critisized.

Actually, it's quite allright that you said all those nasty things :D Check this out:
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. (Hey, that's me! I spoke on Jesus' account and people reviled me.) Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11,12 ESV)

Hallelujah! How cool! I can't wait for a prophet's reward! :mrgreen:

However, I urge you to stop your persecution of an innocent man, not on my behalf but for your own good. God promises terrible things to those who persecute the innocent, particularly those who speak on His behalf.

Meanwhile, I'll be praying for your safety, health, financial blessing and most importantly, your salvation.

I'm done with this thread. The answers from born-again Christians gave me enough information. You can criticize me freely now because I won't be reading any more of this thread. However, recognize that the more you persecute me, the greater my reward and the more your wrath.

I urge you, ask God to forgive you! Christ made forgiveness possible! That wrath can be removed! It's not too late!

Remember, I'm not closing off religious discussion. Please send me a private message or email: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

Praying for your safety, health, financial blessing, and most importantly your salvation!
 

MiataPops

Registered
"You're a good person? Yeah, right!"

I got a private mail from cdevidal. I won't reveal the contents because it is private. But, his salutation was "You're a good person? Yeah, right! Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com", which I believe can be judged as public.

So, I took the test. I broke every commandment. During my life, I have not kept even one of the Ten Commandments. Here are my results from the website:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

So, I took the test again, and, this time, I admit, I lied (for purely scientific, investigatory reasons, for which I immediately repented.) My results:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

I don't think that TenCommandments.com is making a legitimate offer as stated on its website. It does not offer, as stated, an opportunity to present my case if, indeed, I have kept all of the Commandments. Does that constitute fraud?

This is all I am going to post on this topic. Obviously, cdevidal, comes from a legalistic point-of-view that is not easily changed. I stand on the side of Grace and rest in the work of Jesus Christ, not in my own puny efforts.

As Christ said in Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

As to the original question concerning if a Christian can use GTD without comprimizing their faith. The answer is yes. As a GTD | Connect member, I had the occasion to spend some time with David Allen along with five other members after the GTD | The RoadMap seminar in Dallas this week. I asked David his views on spirituality. I won't tell you his answer because that is a private conversation, and only David has a right to express his viewpoint. But, I can tell you, that as a Christian, I am very comfortable with his answer, and I have NO PROBLEM using GTD to improve the quality of my life - both in the here-and-now and in the world to come.

Go with G_d and go in peace.

MiataPops
 
C

cdevidal

Guest
I can hear the objections now: "You're a religious intolerant!" If you say so, but two wrongs don't make a right ;)

Done.
 

br4978

Registered
I'm intrigued by the perception that a verbal challenge or healthy debate constitutes 'persecution', cdevidal. Reaching out to good ol' Websters, I found persecution defined as

"1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief"

I guess suffering is in the perception of the recipient, but I find claims of religious persecution to often be a gross mis-characterization of the actual experience. Be careful not to let your legitimate defense of your faith drive you from conviction to a state of paranoia, if only to allow you to avoid any interference with your own focus.

Best,
 

Diane

Registered
Please don't pray for "financial blessings" for me. I don't believe it's important to God how much money I have.
 
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